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  • #1798284
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    fittersmate
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    Joined: 08 Jun 2009
    Location: Brittany France dept 56
    Total posts: 1624

    Vic I think the main point was the statement that copper plumbing must be Brazed in France, the operative word is “must” nothing wrong with soft soldering for us DIY’s the Brazing route make’s sense for the professionals, but not us one off jockeys in the privacy of our own home. Mike

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    WFIPFLL

    Or even re – jointing a cold supply a supply to a washing machine under a wooden worktop – brazing  anybody? With the pompiers on standby outside?


    #1798285
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    mikej
    Participant
    Joined: 21 Jun 2011
    Location: Dordogne sometimes and Kent the rest
    Total posts: 5287

    On all my recent plumbing work I have been using a Pipe Master soldering tool no chance of any fire with it and it works well despite what has been said on here before, I have even used it as a soldering iron in an emergency i.e. no other means of melting the solder.

    Came across the Zoom Lock when browsing U-Tube,  copper:

    no doubt all been seen before, but thought worth putting a link up.

    Mike


    WFIPFLL

    #1798292
    vic evans
    vic evans
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    Joined: 25 Apr 2015
    Location: Brittany 29
    Total posts: 4066

    Came across the Zoom Lock when browsing U-Tube, copper:

    Which again takes us back to what I said the other day #1797965 :unsure:


    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.

    #1798305
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    Hi Mike, I first saw the Pipemaster or whatever it was called then over 30 years ago when another tool collecting pal used one for his house plumbing and heating, I wanted to use one in France but could not find the jaws compatible with French pipe sizes, there may have been another make probably Rothenburger on sale in France but the price the French pros are shafted for would have been beyond my means back then.

    The crimp tool looks interesting but can only be used for straight joints and no doubt if fittings were available they would be silly prices like the other systems.

    I stuck with copper for the loft flats, TBH I did not know or understand any different, the plumbing was really tight in the combles and behind the baths etc so it was probably the right choice except it wasn’t a choice.

    Moving to PER on the other flats was a revelation, initially PER à glissement and then raccords à cintrer, for me there is no going back except for exposed visible aesthetic pipework, I am just pi55ed at how many now redundant copper fittings I have in stock.


    #1798307
    badger
    badger
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    Joined: 04 Dec 2008
    Location: Near Vire (14)
    Total posts: 1408

    Moving to PER on the other flats was a revelation, initially PER à glissement and then raccords à cintrer, for me there is no going back except for exposed visible aesthetic pipework….

    Hear, hear! Despite being unafraid of soldering pipework I’m a complete convert to the convenience of PER with proper connections. Another boon is the French method of piping things individually back to distribution manifolds – all much mlore convenient for isolation, no need for hidden tees etc.

    Regarding freezing; the protective gaine on PER affords a certain amount of insulation but, more importantly, keeps draughts off the pipes (which seems to be the cause of a lot of bursts). Ideally all pipework is kept inside the insulation layer of a property so should never get down to very low temperatures in an occupied building.


    Jonathan Badger - St Germain de Tallevende 14500 http://www.badgerlx.fr

    #1798308
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    mikej
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    Joined: 21 Jun 2011
    Location: Dordogne sometimes and Kent the rest
    Total posts: 5287

    I am just about to rip out the blockwork bath panel (no access panel) to address the PER that someone put in that bangs every time I turn off the cold tap to the wash hand basin, not a convert I am afraid, can’t get over the reduction in dia to make a joint, just does not seem right.

    Agree that the manifolds are very convenient and you can get them to fit copper pipe.  :yahoo:

    Mike


    WFIPFLL

    • This reply was modified 22 Oct 2017 12:05 by  mikej.
    #1798311
    badger
    badger
    Participant
    Joined: 04 Dec 2008
    Location: Near Vire (14)
    Total posts: 1408

    ….the PER that someone put in that bangs every time I turn off the cold tap to the wash hand basin….

    Hardly a crit of PER – badly installed copper will do the same, but sound tinnier.

    ….can’t get over the reduction in dia to make a joint, just does not seem right.

    ….but doesn’t seem to make any difference to the end result IME.


    Jonathan Badger - St Germain de Tallevende 14500 http://www.badgerlx.fr

    #1798313
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    Each bend will make a small difference but the advantage of PER if it is sensibly planned is that you dont need many or even any bends.

    Elbows in copper pipe reduce flow compared to swept bends but here in France we dont lack for water pressure.

    I have lots of bends, tees, crossovers etc in the tortuous plumbing runs in the loft apartments but if I had had any sense I could have run all the pipes under the floor and above the dropped ceiling on the floor below like I subsequently did on all the other floors, I would have needed no more than one bend on each line, possibly none and no appliances would be sharing the same feeds as they do in the lofts with their copper plumbing.

    I love how I can isolate a single appliance from the manifold and even just the hot or cold feed without disrupting the others.

    For the ground floor the PER runs underneath on the cave roof, the cave is cross ventilated and has frozen so I have used foam pipe insulation over the gaine, any leaks from the ground floor will be apparent in the cave and not damage a ceiling below like on the upper floors so I can see the great sense in building a plein pied over a vide sanitaire or sous sol, the ballon for the ground floor flat is in the cave which really simplified the layout of the flat.


    #1798314
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    My own flat which is the first plumbing I did was done in copper, and UK copper at that :oops: even though all the pipework is inside the insulated building, hidden behind the kitchen units etc I should have insulated the hot line, the kitchen sink is the furthest from the ballon, only a 9m run but ecah time I have to draw 2.5 litres of water before it runs hot.

    That represents a waste of around 90m3 of water and water heating since I have lived in the apartment plus a little more for the lavabo and douche, OK there would also be losses in PER but the other flats are not afflicted in the same manner so I reckon the 90m3 is not far off the mark including the bathroom.

    Of course if you are installing it for someone else its not your problem!


    #1798321
    vic evans
    vic evans
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    Joined: 25 Apr 2015
    Location: Brittany 29
    Total posts: 4066

    I am afraid, can’t get over the reduction in dia to make a joint, just does not seem right.

    I’d have thought you could apply your structural mathematical ability to pipework pressure drops with a little learning & maybe convince yourself that the extra resistance of a couple of PER fittings at the pressures & flow rates involved would make an imperceptable difference. On the other hand you could just take the word of them what know :whistle:

    What’s your take on ceramic disc taps with very small waterways compared to good old, can’t beat ’em ‘cos their resistance is low, high lift rubber washered taps? :unsure:

    PS. Try turning your tap off slowly to avoid water hammer :whistle:

     


    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.

    • This reply was modified 22 Oct 2017 13:04 by  vic evans.
    #1798333
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    mikej
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    Joined: 21 Jun 2011
    Location: Dordogne sometimes and Kent the rest
    Total posts: 5287

    My mathematical ability aside, I just can’t get over the reduction in dia at each joint, it goes against all engineering principles and you should know that, take the word of someone else that knows, I do turn the tap off slowly, but my guest don’t.

    Mike


    WFIPFLL

    #1798583
    vic evans
    vic evans
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    Joined: 25 Apr 2015
    Location: Brittany 29
    Total posts: 4066

    My mathematical ability aside, I just can’t get over the reduction in dia at each joint, it goes against all engineering principles and you should know that

    I said; “the extra resistance of a couple of PER fittings at the pressures & flow rates involved would make an imperceptable difference”.

    There is no doubt that there will be extra resistance & a reduction in flow rates but you wouldn’t notice it, it’s doubtfull you could measure it & if you could, unless water is just about falling out of a tap why on earth would you want to?

    I remember that some while ago I was trying in vain to persuade you not to increase pipe sizes on, I believe, a hws draw off but see now that you are blind sided by this resistance thing & can’t get past ‘bigger is better’.

    In fairness it’s rare bridges, buildings etc fall down though under specification & patently obvious it would be bad if they did, so, the structural engineers mentality of ‘better safe than sorry so we’ll use a safety factor of 6 & add in our grannys age just for luck” is correct. However this logic is not necessary & very often counter productive in the plumbing industry when most folk are just happy to have water coming out of a tap & indeed usually throttle the tap down as the flow is too high for their needs.

     


    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.

    #1798584
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    mikej
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    Joined: 21 Jun 2011
    Location: Dordogne sometimes and Kent the rest
    Total posts: 5287

    In all fairness to you, you did try to persuade me to not put in the 20mm copper to my shower, but this particular installation has a sex jet outlet and I wanted the maximum amount of pressure I could get, as you know Bernoulli’s principle states that an increase in the velocity of a fluid is accompanied by a decrease in pressure, so going smaller in diameter would have decreased the pressure from the jets, as it is the pressure from the jets is just what my other half wanted, so lots of brownie points obtained, I think I have used them all up now though.  :-(

    Mike


    WFIPFLL

    #1798586
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    Chanceux
    Participant
    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    Sex jets and brownies :shock:

    Too much info Mike whatever you get up to in the privacy of your home is your business :grin:


    #1798588
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    mikej
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    Joined: 21 Jun 2011
    Location: Dordogne sometimes and Kent the rest
    Total posts: 5287

    Freudian slip, but I get what I can when I can.  :yahoo:

    Mike


    WFIPFLL

French Plumbing, Heating & Septic Tanks
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