Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 206 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #777875
    Avatar
    anonymous
    Participant
    Joined: 23 Mar 2012
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 751

    @peake wrote:

    Silver soldering/ Brazeing, is not nessacery on household pipework,Oh yes it is in France, this is a French posting, so if in France keep to the French reg’s, or risk your assurance being null & void

    Hi,
    Realise this posting (and others) was sometime ago now….
    I am looking into starting a plumbing business in France and found this topic very interesting but Why do the French braze rather than solder? There appears to be a lot of conversations on the web about this, but no-one really says why brazing v’s soldering! I cannot see any major benefits of one over the other, so is it just because of the regulations? If so, can you tell me where I can find details of these Regulations.
    Thanks!


    #777876
    Avatar
    barney
    Participant
    Joined: 31 May 2006
    Location: minervois
    Total posts: 195

    the difference is the quality and strength of the joint. don’t want to start peake off again but it’s just preference. some plumbing companies ask there clients which they prefer when pricing a job up. i think soft soldering is cheaper. brazed joints are stronger.
    most french plumbers prefer to braze but for little jobs they usually soft solder because the oxy achetelene bottles are bit big and heavy to do just one joint.


    #777877
    Avatar
    vienne
    Participant
    Joined: 15 Oct 2005
    Location: Depth 16
    Total posts: 660

    I found more success using UK flux also as the French sort is a bit watery, that’s if I bought the right sort of course.


    #777878
    Avatar
    rod
    Member
    Joined: 26 Jun 2006
    Location: cornwall and dordogne 24580 nr rouffignac perigord noir 24
    Total posts: 72

    i would say that normal lead free solder is would be good enough for france! everflux uk flux is really good to as it is water soluble ,i would think even brazed joints could break down in a really bad freeze as it is an adhesive at the end if the day too,maybe i am just going to be proved wrong?


    #777879
    Avatar
    barney
    Participant
    Joined: 31 May 2006
    Location: minervois
    Total posts: 195

    i also found the flux watery and a little strange
    i now use a flux specially for copper, it’s red and goes clear when at the right temperature for soldering.

    i miss powerflow but when i left england a few years ago there was experts saying it wasn’t good for the copper or consumer

    another strange thing over here is the lack of drain offs on heating systems.

    also the lack of drop test nipples on gas meters.

    i’m just starting to get to grips with the regs over here and just found out you need high and low level ventilation for gas cookers and that brass clips need an insulter between the brass clip and copper pipe

    we live and learn!


    #777880
    Avatar
    barney
    Participant
    Joined: 31 May 2006
    Location: minervois
    Total posts: 195

    you need an insulater between the brass clpis and copper pipes when it’s for gas, didn’t explain it very well on my last post


    #777881
    Avatar
    rod
    Member
    Joined: 26 Jun 2006
    Location: cornwall and dordogne 24580 nr rouffignac perigord noir 24
    Total posts: 72

    maybe it is to stop electrolosis between the different metals? i hate that powerflow flux i use everflux evertime,do you use plastic/pushfit h20 for hot/cold services over there


    #777882
    Avatar
    vienne
    Participant
    Joined: 15 Oct 2005
    Location: Depth 16
    Total posts: 660

    @rod wrote:

    maybe it is to stop electrolosis between the different metals? i hate that powerflow flux i use everflux evertime,do you use plastic/pushfit h20 for hot/cold services over there

    They don’t fit Rod, nothing does, you have to succumb but 15mm compressions are in abundance in our house at present.

    John


    #777883
    Avatar
    peake
    Member
    Joined: 21 May 2004
    Location: Plouasne, Dept 22 & abit further East than Jennie
    Total posts: 228

    Has an answer to a lot of questions on this posting, about brazing, or to be more exact; the hard soldering of copper tube for water, hot, & cold & central heating, versus soft soldering; gas testing, lack of drain offs, etc

    DTU 60.5, (Now NF P41-221, Mai 1993 ) 3,211 assemblage par brassage et soudo-brassage; 2,35 metaux d’apport, (les metaux d’apport pour soudage et brassage sont confomes la norm NF A 81-362), the only problem with this norm is that it is only for hard solder, now soft solder has been dropped from the norm

    So the way I read it, and all the plumbers I have asked in Brittany, Hard solder is the norm, for professional plumbers, DIY’ers can do what they like inside there own property, more or less like in the UK

    Drain offs (robinet de vidange) on C/H systems or the supposed lack of them, these come or should come as a pack with the radiator, (they look like the old air release valves 1950 vintage) and should be fitted on one of the bottom tapping’s on the radiators

    Gas testing, for a bulk propane installation use a full propane bottle and fit it to the gas supply from the tank to the house, also fit a pressure gauge to the outlet then use the bottle pressure to test the supply, leave it to temperature stabilise then leave it for half an hour, this is a savage test more than asked for by the norms, but if it holds you know that it is good
    The proper gas testing procedure is for a battery powered compressor, this has both a natural gas and a propane connector, the test is 40mbar max for a minimum of 10 minutes

    Pipe clips, I have never seen brass pipe clips in France, only sheradised steel clips, the rubber insulation is both for sound deadening and to stop electrolysis

    I know that a proper hard soldered joint will not break before the tube, the copper either side of the joint will bulge because it has been annealed with the heat of making the joint (see another posting of mine where I stated that the copper tube failed at 9000lbs²inch, but the joint held)

    I know that some people will say that oxy acetylene bottles are heavy, but the whole kit comes in at just over 21 Kgs, and I would not call that too heavy, and they will do a whole 7 hours continuous use at 100 litres of gas an hour consumption

    Soft solder fluxes, some of these contain chlorides, which are corrosive, and should never be used on stainless steel tube, one firm in the UK used this type of flux on a large job with s/s tube both gas and water, and by the time the job was finished 2 years later the tube had pin holed, caused by the flux

    15mm tube, 15×13 tube and fittings can be obtained to special order, I know of only one firm in France, who can obtain or stocks this size tube and fittings

    D T U 60.5, 3.1, Also states that copper tube should not be used up stream of galvanised iron tube, and copper or brass should not be used in conjunction with aluminum , but can be used with aluminum radiators on a closed circuit central heating system

    Most French plumbers I know, prefer to make up a manifold to supply both hot and cold water from a central point, at first I found this strange, but when looked at in detail, it is a good idea because it is compact and the service is the right size for the appliance so reducing heat loss in the pipe work, and the manifold also acts as a balancer so reducing potential pressure loss when another appliance is turned on; manifolds can only really be made with “piquage’s” the plumber making the branchment where he wants it, by forming branches in a piece of large bore copper tube 28mm or above normally, and then hard soldering a short stubs of copper tube in place, this is the manifold, and is about the first thing he does when on site to do the second fix

    Gas cookers and hobs (built in) should have a flexible with both ends having a screwed coupling and the gas tap should also be both visible and a push in quarter turn type of valve with a male thread to take the flexible, rubber hoses which are just a push on a ‘nipple’ are now banned

    New gas work should be passed by a qualified person this includes boiler replacements, anybody working on gas who finds a fault either on the supply or the flue, should turn off and seal the valve in the shut position, the valve supplying the appliance, until the fault has been rectified

    For CORGI registered persons, the EU ruling is a bit vague ( EU free movement of goods and labour) but it should be possible with all the certificates translated into French, get the prefecture to recognise them has a starting point to getting the French qualifications to work on gas, the same would go for a plumber as well


    #777884
    Avatar
    barney
    Participant
    Joined: 31 May 2006
    Location: minervois
    Total posts: 195

    as for the push fit , it’s starting to arrive over here i saw it the other day with the plastic inserts. but only in 12 mm and 16mm but the french system of per is a little slower but i trust the fittings more. over here pipe sizes for copper are normally10 12 14 16 18 20 22. my english pipe bender works for the 14 16 20 and 22. i even found pipeslice in 12 14 and 16 they were expensive but well worth the money. if you want to use the 15 mm compression fittings you can buy joint americans in half inch which will work with 14 mm pipework as the french compression fittings are sized the same as english ones.


    #777885
    Avatar
    peake
    Member
    Joined: 21 May 2004
    Location: Plouasne, Dept 22 & abit further East than Jennie
    Total posts: 228

    Barny,

    A correction its only the fitting threads that are the same size as the English ones, stop giving half true answers, the real answer is that all copper compression fittings use a bsp parallel pipe thread for the cap nuts it saves on having to use an adaptor from copper to iron, I suggest that you go back and read all the plumbing postings


    #777886
    Avatar
    vienne
    Participant
    Joined: 15 Oct 2005
    Location: Depth 16
    Total posts: 660

    All British compression fittings work better than French flux with solder. I could say no argument, that’s it! but in MHO it makes my vacation longer. Probably if I was there more often, nothing would blow.
    Still trying to remember the brazing lessons from school, any pointers?
    Cheers
    John


    #777887
    Avatar
    gmg
    Participant
    Joined: 20 May 2006
    Location: 12
    Total posts: 1

    Renovating a house in the early 90’s, I brought over lots of UK pipe and fittings thinking it would be cheaper. It was, but after that, whenever I had to alter anything and I had no UK fittings left, it was a ‘mare. Therefore, in my new house I am using only French pipe and connections, and if I can get push-fit then I will be in plumbing heaven! So much quicker and easy to alter.


    #777888
    Avatar
    kees
    Member
    Joined: 14 May 2006
    Location: Les Lèves et Thoumeyragues, Gironde (33)
    Total posts: 2

    Hehehe, I guess that I might just rely on a local plummer instead. This stuff goes way over my head, unless any of you are willing to help me out fitting plumming in our newly acquired property in the Gironde… :idea:


    Tel. 0557412943

    #777889
    Avatar
    djc
    Participant
    Joined: 31 Oct 2006
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 2

    Good Morning,
    My name is David, I have just joined the forum after buying a house in the Vendee region. I am going over to france to start renovation work on the property in about 3 weeks time.
    I am an English based building contractor and have over the last 30 years specialised in renovation and barn conversions.
    I have been interested to read the conflicting views on French plumbing, especially those of Peake, who is obviously extremely conversant with the regs. I am still a little unsure if soft solder is acceptable, or is it a case of following the FRENCH REGS….if so does anyone have a site that I can download them from.
    Also does anyone know if our small oxy/acet bottles are compatible with the french ? I have a small set of BOC which I could take with me.
    Any help gratefully received


French Plumbing, Heating & Septic Tanks
Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 206 total)

You cannot reply to this topic.