Viewing 15 posts - 196 through 210 (of 218 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1748965
    Avatar
    Chanceux
    Participant
    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    Andy, you are right, I was in France so was not living through the recession in the UK, even when I had lived through previous ones I had always worked for myself so had never had a stable income, it was always feast or famine, someone with a fixed monthly pay packet would see their spending power reduced over the period, but that is also because they were probably confidently spending all of it where people like me would only spend the minimum on essentials.

    I dont dispute your figures either Andy but I look at those 6 years from a detached viewpoint, I return a couple of times a year so any changes are quite apparent, yes those who have lost their jobs were in hardship but falling living standards for the majority? It certainly did not look like that when I saw what people were buying in the shops and supermarkets, the cost of non essential goods was always falling, and lets be clear, thats what the overflowing trolleys were full of, people living on the breadline would have one small basket and I do think that the costs of the basics did rise during that time because I really felt it.

    Editted, also the cost of electricity, gas, water etc, they all seemed to rise, rents really shot up as a landlord I was aware of that but conversely mortgages were and still are incredibly cheap compared to what i had always paid. All of the tenants I have had would in my day have bought their own house, comparitively they were earning far more than I was and would have been far better off buying rather than renting but all said they could not get on the ladder without help from their parents yet I have never seen such overconsumption and waste in how they spent every penny of their incomes, its a funny old world.


    • This reply was modified 15 Oct 2016 09:01 by  Chanceux.
    #1748977
    Avatar
    roadrat
    Participant
    Joined: 28 Oct 2005
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 3683

    Quite agree about the over consumption and waste of those moaning they can’t afford to buy their own property. In another life in my early twenties  when I had a well but not enormously paid office job in the UK, my colleagues who generally lived with their parents could not be persuaded that I did not have a private income as well. Nice garden flat, sports car, new motorbike, yet we rarely ate out and unlike my  colleagues I was not in the pub lunch time and after work nor going on to a club or casino afterwards.  Ironically, the knock on was that I was never in the right place when promotions were being handed out and eventually jacked it all in to move to rural France.

    The last drop in the pound was different, the country and many businesses were fat and inefficient. Those that didn’t trim this and get efficient went to the wall, trouble is this time around there isn’t much left to trim. Margins are much smaller and competition in all sectors much greater.

    As you say France managed by just staying the same and putting prices up, can they continue like this?

     

     


    #1748989
    Avatar
    pommehomme
    Participant
    Joined: 03 Jan 2010
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 888

    Drawing historical comparisons concerning the effect of the falling value of the £ is all well and good, but what the latest contributions ignore is the difference in the causes of the present decline and previous falls. Generally, in the past the falls in the value of the £ have been precipitated by external, often international, factors. Or, at least, those beyond the control of the UK and its Government. This time it’s a self inflicted wound. It’s what the British people – or, to be more precise, approximately 37% of the British electorate – did last June, combined with the British Government’s consequential actions, that is causing the value of the £ to engage in a slow and painful decline and, in all probability, take the UK back into recession. I wonder whether anyone would seek to argue that if the vote last June had been to stay in the EU, the £ and the UK still would be in its present parlous state.


    #1748994
    CelticRambler
    CelticRambler
    Participant
    Joined: 01 Apr 2008
    Location: Good question. What day is it?
    Total posts: 6004

    Another difference this time round is that at the time of the previous episode, the Great British Consumer was still basking in the hypnotic glow of falling interest rates, so there was plenty of magic money left the monthly paypacket when that month’s credit card bill and mortgage payments had(n’t) been paid.

    Those who spend the most and think the least (apparently the drivers of most Western economies :roll: ) have forgotten that interest rates of ~0% are not normal, so the psychological effect of even a modest increase in mortgage or CC interest will weigh dispropotionately on the mood of the electorate.


    #1748998
    Avatar
    Chanceux
    Participant
    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    Is the UK currently in a parlous state? Not even sure what it means, I dont think the fall in the pound has affected Mr consumer one bit yet, yes for sure businesses looking forward will be concerned, RR makes a good point about their current lean-ness. Did the falling pound cause the recession or did the recession cause the £ to fall?

    What has instantly been affected is the income of UK citizens living in €uro currency countries from their pensions and investment income including rents, I get that, I suffered it myself last time, this time there is someone to blame, but then how is that different to saying that Brexitters were putting the blame on immigrants for their percieved hardships?

    When people say, my income is reduced because of the fall in the £’s value, I am suffering and I blame those who voted out, I find that refreshingly honest and I get it, I have been there, of all the concerns for the UK economy, for the future of the young etc etc would we be seeing so much of them if the £ had not fallen against the Euro (but the UK still had a bleak future)? I’m not so sure, Andy and Roadrat (and probably some others that dont spring to mind) however have always voiced their concerns on those very matters well before the referendum was even considered.


    #1749012
    Avatar
    lindal1000
    Participant
    Joined: 09 Jun 2011
    Location: france
    Total posts: 4844

    I think worldwide economies are fragile. Most of it is based on exchanging virtual money that doesn’t really exist and living above your means with things you can’t afford, so it is all precarious. However what the UK has done is put itself in the firing line to take the brunt of the damage. It may well fall everywhere but it is going to fall harder and faster in the UK now. There is a certain protection in being part of a large group that can even out the highs and lows for individuals and the UK has effectively said it wants out. There are so many things about this that are going to be so difficult to manage if people want ‘their control back’.

    One example.. take the UK’s electricity supply.. one of the most crucial elements for an economy wouldn’t you say?

    Well 80% of the UKs electricity suppliers are owned by overseas companies, the big three being EDF, EON (German owned) and Scottish Power (Spanish owned). The cable under the channel that supplies the UK from France’s nuclear power stations at the moment has 90% of it going in one direction (from France to the UK). EDF also provides or manages a lot of the infrastructure in the UK. Pretty much all of the major enterprises in the UK that employ large numbers of people are multinational corporations.


    #1749013
    Avatar
    smiffyP
    Participant
    Joined: 21 Jan 2016
    Location: 61/14 border, Basse Normandie
    Total posts: 853

    I recall the guy at the roadside snack wagon that I used in those days saying that he would have to put the price of the breakfasts up because the eggs came from the EU and were costing him a lot more, but in fact he didnt.

    <hr />

    Why the frig wasn’t he buying British eggs in the first place  :scratch:


    #1749014
    Avatar
    sanjunien
    Participant
    Joined: 25 Apr 2015
    Location: Saint Junien 87
    Total posts: 1032

    Not forgetting also that the majority of the UK water companies are French-owned.


    sanjunien

    #1749026
    andy72
    andy72
    Participant
    Joined: 26 Oct 2008
    Location: Charente and NOT Milton Keynes
    Total posts: 7939

    Andy, you are right, I was in France so was not living through the recession in the UK, even when I had lived through previous ones I had always worked for myself so had never had a stable income, it was always feast or famine, someone with a fixed monthly pay packet would see their spending power reduced over the period, but that is also because they were probably confidently spending all of it where people like me would only spend the minimum on essentials. I dont dispute your figures either Andy but I look at those 6 years from a detached viewpoint, I return a couple of times a year so any changes are quite apparent, yes those who have lost their jobs were in hardship but falling living standards for the majority? It certainly did not look like that when I saw what people were buying in the shops and supermarkets, the cost of non essential goods was always falling, and lets be clear, thats what the overflowing trolleys were full of, people living on the breadline would have one small basket and I do think that the costs of the basics did rise during that time because I really felt it. Editted, also the cost of electricity, gas, water etc, they all seemed to rise, rents really shot up as a landlord I was aware of that but conversely mortgages were and still are incredibly cheap compared to what i had always paid. All of the tenants I have had would in my day have bought their own house, comparitively they were earning far more than I was and would have been far better off buying rather than renting but all said they could not get on the ladder without help from their parents yet I have never seen such overconsumption and waste in how they spent every penny of their incomes, its a funny old world.

    <hr />

     

    You have hit it on the head when you talk of cheap mortgages and rising house prices. What happened in the UK while prices were rising faster than wages for food, energy and other basics was that those with property were able to earn more from the increase in their house value than they could from working for a living. Fine for those with property but not so good for those without, many of whom who finished up blaming immigration for their plight when the real villan was an economy that was reliant on funny money, credit and a symbiotic relationship between Government, bankers and the beneficiaries of the bricks and mortar cash machine.


    Starve the troll

    #1749028
    Avatar
    amico
    Participant
    Joined: 07 Feb 2009
    Location: 85 Lucon
    Total posts: 1757

    lindal 100 wrote : The cable under the channel that supplies the UK from France’s nuclear power stations at the moment has 90% of it going in one direction (from France to the UK).

    Just goes to show how well the UK is doing to be able to afford to do it . France must be delighted that they have such a rich neighbor prepared to buy from them and help to finance their nuclear power industry .


    #1749030
    Avatar
    Chanceux
    Participant
    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    What happened in the UK while prices were rising faster than wages for food, energy and other basics was that those with property were able to earn more from the increase in their house value than they could from working for a living.

    But the sensible didnt spend it though Andy, or perhaps rarely maybe once or twice during their 25 year term, quite possibly to buy a house in France.

    I can think of a couple of former friends who fit your description perfectly, real spendthrifts and wastrels (always wanted to use that word) cars, caravans, holidays, clothes, toys, kit-cars, eating out, and repeated purchases of the first couple so money lost each time, one guys wife worked for the finance company so they were literally borrowing twice per year, financing all their overspending on the house price rise.

    Another had some kind of an an off-set mortgage, they would have the house re-valued a few times each year and draw out the extra money to blow in the same way.

    And then there were the others that used the notional increase in wealth to start buy to let empires then leveraging the increasing equity in each house to fund others.

    All very far removed from earning a wage for giving labour to the creation of goods and services that people/society really need.


    #1749033
    mysty2
    mysty2
    Participant
    Joined: 29 Jul 2012
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 9603

    I recall the guy at the roadside snack wagon that I used in those days saying that he would have to put the price of the breakfasts up because the eggs came from the EU and were costing him a lot more, but in fact he didnt.

    <hr />

    Why the frig wasn’t he buying British eggs in the first place :scratch:

    <hr />

    They are not normally the brightest people who run theses businesses,  or he was an ex taxi driver talking waffles  :yahoo:   Have you never heard of the French egg run. Eggs are cheaper in France  even taking in the fuel and ferry costs :yes:   :yes:   as long as you buy more than 24 eggs at a time.

    I do not know what the situation was in England years ago, but Scotland had egg wholesales and makro.


    #1749037
    Aardvark
    Aardvark
    Participant
    Joined: 27 May 2009
    Location: 22
    Total posts: 2457

    What happened in the UK while prices were rising faster than wages for food, energy and other basics was that those with property were able to earn more from the increase in their house value than they could from working for a living.

    But the sensible didnt spend it though Andy, or perhaps rarely maybe once or twice during their 25 year term, quite possibly to buy a house in France. I can think of a couple of former friends who fit your description perfectly, real spendthrifts and wastrels (always wanted to use that word) cars, caravans, holidays, clothes, toys, kit-cars, eating out, and repeated purchases of the first couple so money lost each time, one guys wife worked for the finance company so they were literally borrowing twice per year, financing all their overspending on the house price rise. Another had some kind of an an off-set mortgage, they would have the house re-valued a few times each year and draw out the extra money to blow in the same way. And then there were the others that used the notional increase in wealth to start buy to let empires then leveraging the increasing equity in each house to fund others. All very far removed from earning a wage for giving labour to the creation of goods and services that people/society really need.

    <hr />

    I guess that would explain the British obsession with their house prices.  I’ve always worked for a living and any gain I got when selling a house was gobbled up by the removal expenses and/or periods of unemployment that have plagued me most of my working life.  Had less than half a dozen proper holidays and always wondered about the sanity of those around me who would max out their credit cards to take a foreign holiday while they were unemployed.  :scratch:


    #1749043
    Avatar
    lindal1000
    Participant
    Joined: 09 Jun 2011
    Location: france
    Total posts: 4844

    lindal 100 wrote : The cable under the channel that supplies the UK from France’s nuclear power stations at the moment has 90% of it going in one direction (from France to the UK).

    Just goes to show how well the UK is doing to be able to afford to do it . France must be delighted that they have such a rich neighbor prepared to buy from them and help to finance their nuclear power industry .

    <hr>

    I don’t know that the UK has much choice does it? It doesn’t produce enough of it’s own electricity to be self sufficient as it used up all the North Sea gas to fire it’s generators and now there is nothing left. Of course that might change when the French/Chinese owned nuclear reactor comes online. I did read however that the French are interested in buying back some of the UK generated green energy from it’s wind farms, so that might be a way to go..smother the countryside in wind farms and export it! (France needs some more green energy to meet the climate change targets)


    #1749046
    Avatar
    lindal1000
    Participant
    Joined: 09 Jun 2011
    Location: france
    Total posts: 4844

    What happened in the UK while prices were rising faster than wages for food, energy and other basics was that those with property were able to earn more from the increase in their house value than they could from working for a living.

    But the sensible didnt spend it though Andy, or perhaps rarely maybe once or twice during their 25 year term, quite possibly to buy a house in France.

    I can think of a couple of former friends who fit your description perfectly, real spendthrifts and wastrels (always wanted to use that word) cars, caravans, holidays, clothes, toys, kit-cars, eating out, and repeated purchases of the first couple so money lost each time, one guys wife worked for the finance company so they were literally borrowing twice per year, financing all their overspending on the house price rise.

    Another had some kind of an an off-set mortgage, they would have the house re-valued a few times each year and draw out the extra money to blow in the same way.

    And then there were the others that used the notional increase in wealth to start buy to let empires then leveraging the increasing equity in each house to fund others.

    All very far removed from earning a wage for giving labour to the creation of goods and services that people/society really need.

    <hr>

    Sadly though your friends (and some of mine) were/are essential to keep the economy going and the spend culture was encouraged. People like me, who only try to earn what we need to get by, do not owe money and do not employ others to do work we are capable of doing ourselves are a nightmare for most economies as we don’t contribute much in the way of tax..either directly or indirectly. The less you spend the less tax you pay :grin: Also, my generation has been very fortunate. I came out of education (in total about 20 years worth if you count all the part time study I did) without any debt because most of it was funded in one way or another..I was able to afford a house, I was able to travel, to live and work where I wanted, I have been able to afford good food, been able to access good healthcare as and when needed and have managed to put enough aside to support myself in older age. I’m certain the generations below me will not be so fortunate, brexit or no brexit.


Brexit
Viewing 15 posts - 196 through 210 (of 218 total)

You cannot reply to this topic.