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  • #1819432
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    External sensors are a world of grief all on their own, its a very unstable constantly changing environment as you know, the only ones I ever found that were even a little bit reliable and avoided false alarms were twin beam break detectors set with 1.2m vertical seperation, loads of cabling for 4 units and even then a pigmy could sneak through and a horse cause a false alarm :lol:

    the DVR has programming for external sensors but no inputs for them, I think there must be pro cameras that have a sensor input and then send the signal along the coax, the DVR would need 8 inputs.

    Getting somewhere with the motion detection, they have written the code parameters backwards, sensitivity from 1 to 8 is actually 1 most sensitive and 8 least sensitive, that has taken days to find because I have one camera that will trigger all the time whatever the setting and another that you have to cover the lens repeatedly.

    I have found that rain reflects the IR illumination and causes havoc also you must mask any areas where a wall or whatever reflects the IR faisceau, I am getting closer to perhaps having one or two cameras that will detect a vehicle driving at the camera at night and/or the PIR bulkhead lights switching on/off, that is probably the best I can expect after a lot of work, probably useless in daytime and useless when it rains especially at night.

    Shame really, maybe the pro camera or DVR companys if they still exist, have a decent and intelligent algorithm.


    #1820547
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    System been up and running for several weeks now, initially cameras thrown up and the cables trung between them, now all cabling completed professionally, a rare opportunity to step back into a previous life and to use tools and materials that have sat around for 15 years.

    I have given up completely on the motion detection, sad to say that its one area where the technology hasn’t moved on and its as unreliable as it ever was, for an internal camera where there is little or no natural light you might be able to get away with it but any external cameras will immediately trigger motion detection as soon as it rains with the IR leds reflecting from the rain drops, as the CCD ship adapts to changing light levels it triggers everytime, I think one of my old school direct or auto iris lenses in a proper camera housing with an external IR lamp set to one side probably would work.

    The plug n play “shotgun” power & co-ax cables work well but you end up with huge spools of excess cable to try and hide, I cut and re-jointed it, my existing BNC crimp connectors can be persuaded to do the job but its a bodge, correct RG59 mini BNC’s are hard to come by and are prohibitively expensive, the best compromise is to use telecom “nib” connectors (molex) for both the power and co-ax.

    I have bought 100m of RG59 mini co-ax for phase 2 (I bought another 4 cameras) as they will need to share a gaine with 2 monitor cables, I really like the mini cable compared to the traditional RG59, its more than capable of carrying the camera or monitor signals over long cable runs, the same cannot be said for the plug n play cables that come with the cameras.

    The co-ax is OK but there are volt drop problems for the power cables, the cameras come with 20m shotgun cables with connectors fitted, they also sell 30m extension cables, thes should not be used nor should they be used on their own, 20m is about the limit for volt drop, I had a problem on test with the 1080 dome camera and it was also evident on the install, it has the longest cable run, the 30m cable could deliver enough current for the IR Leds without volt drop, there was hardly any IR illumination and the camera did not switch to monochrome.

    Where you have longer than 20m cable runs you need to have a seperate power supply nearer to the cameras which is easy enough to do but it then becomes an install requiring thought and planning and not plug n play.

    back to the motion detection, my only internal camera in the stairwell will work with motion detection at night but when daylight comes through the front door and is cut off by a passing vehicle it triggers constantly, I have a reed switch door contact which is ideal as an external sensor input and the DVr software can be configured for this but they have removed the input terminals, a shame as it would be the perfect solution for me to have every opening of the main front door recorded on the log and to be able to quickly view 30 secconds of pre and post trigger video, its my only regret but it would only cost €40 to change the DVR for one with the sensor inputs.


    #1820548
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    The recordings have now consumed close to half of the 1Tb disque dur, it looks like I will be able to record 8 cameras 24/7 for a month before overwriting files.


    #1820556
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    mikej
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    Joined: 21 Jun 2011
    Location: Dordogne sometimes and Kent the rest
    Total posts: 5287

    That is a shame the IR detectors don’t work, for a second home owner it would be good to check what has gone on around your property when you arrive, but if you leave the property for over a month seems not to be viable, I suppose the only way would be to leave gates unlocked and have the cameras triggered by gate opening, but this would not protect from the scrote who jumps over the fence, alternatively a 5TB drive, I wonder how long it would take to view five months of video? I suppose if nothing has gone wrong you don’t view it at all.

    Does the video automatically reset and start recording from the beginning when its full?

    Mike


    WFIPFLL

    • This reply was modified 27 Jan 2018 10:32 by  mikej.
    #1820566
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    Its not PIR detection, that would be a catastrophe!, its an algorithm that looks for changes of light levels across the pixels, it works but there are just too many other factors other than a person or vehicle that would trigger it which renders it useless, for internal use with limited external light influences it should work, you can block out false trigger areas but when the camera adjusts to a changing light level its like changing the backlight level, the whole screen brightens or darkens which of course will trigger, I suspect that transients also make the cameras hiccup.

    I would always record all camereas 24/7 and not rely on motion sensing to trigger recording, better to use the motion alerts as bookmarks to scan through the recordings, even if you dont record permanently there is always a buffer running, a motion trigger will store 15,30,60 or whatever seconds of pre and post trigger recording, clicking on any motion event will replay the same.

    You can replay videos at up to 16 times speed or slow down to 1/4 speed, with multi cameras its best to replay all of them together at fast forward and pause when you see anything of interest.

    There are various programmable options for when the disque dur becomes full, I have chosen overwrite together with an audible alarm when 128gb remains, it can also send you an e-mail warning and you can see the disque status on the remote viewing, playback recordings, copy them to your computer or even take photographs in real time, if you use cameras with microphones and speakers or fit external ones you can talk to a visitor or warn off an intruder and take their photo.


    #1820567
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    In the scenario you describe Mike I would use some reliable external detectors, my knowledge is years out of date but twin beam break detectors were the least liable to false triggering, when I extend the car park and fit an automatic barrier i will use the vehicle loop detectors to trigger recordings, I will probably use a dedicated DVR for that job.

    I am kicking myself, the kits containing everything, cameras, psu, cables, DVR etc are better value than buying additional components, I have just bought 4 extra cameras and for another €10 or so I could have had another DVR which would have the sensor inputs that I want, TBH the stuff is all so cheap and quickly delivered that price is really not an issue.


    #1820570
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    teapot
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    Joined: 10 Jul 2008
    Location: Tours
    Total posts: 2372

    In the scenario you describe Mike I would use some reliable external detectors, my knowledge is years out of date but twin beam break detectors were the least liable to false triggering, when I extend the car park and fit an automatic barrier i will use the vehicle loop detectors to trigger recordings, I will probably use a dedicated DVR for that job. I am kicking myself, the kits containing everything, cameras, psu, cables, DVR etc are better value than buying additional components, I have just bought 4 extra cameras and for another €10 or so I could have had another DVR which would have the sensor inputs that I want, TBH the stuff is all so cheap and quickly delivered that price is really not an issue.

    <hr />

    Far too long ago Chancer but we used Gamma detectors outdoors, do they still exist?  So your new kit is using the pixel movement on the cameras to trigger?


    Raising the standards of swimming pool knowledge and technology.

    #1820574
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    From what I can understand of what is written and how they used to (not!) work, its a change in luminosity across pixels, obviously some sort of algorithm, a person will be lighter or darker than the background around them, as that person (or vehicle or whatever) moves across the screen image……………………………

    Its the same principle as how a PIR detector works, in a PIR the sensor is looking at an infra red image broken up into zones by a fresnel lens, a person moves across the image or the whole detector moves in the wind then the image changes, lots of algorithms behind the better detectors yet we know not to rely on them outside, how ironic that my outside PIR’s are far more stable than the motion detection.

    In time I will try another DVR, a spare would be good and the sensor inputs will be needed, it could be that another more established one will be more stable, I think its more a case that the cheap cameras have dominated the market and you just no longer see the old type with seperate auto-iris or direct drive lens and seperate infra red floodlights which I’m pretty sure would not false trigger the motion detection.

    Overall I am blown away by the quality and derisory price of the modern equipment and I certainly was right to follow my gut feeling to get out of the market, the important thing is to be grounded in your expectations of the equipment.


    • This reply was modified 27 Jan 2018 13:32 by  Chanceux.
    #1820590
    loopski
    loopski
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    Joined: 23 Jan 2013
    Location: deux sèvres
    Total posts: 9778

    https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.fr%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F172959930249

    I just buy PIRs at €3.50 per unit and make my own arrangements.


    I would lie on top of the stairs and smell the cigar smoke of Castro.

    #1820591
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    i might get a couple to put in stock, do you have any? Are they really mains or 12 volt?

    Voltage choose: AC85V~265V(50Hz)/ DC 12V

    Editted, found the ones for me:

    https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Automatique-DC-12V-IR-Infrarouge-Detecteur-de-Mouvement-PIR-Interrupteur-Pour/131888442805?hash=item1eb529edb5:m:mlaYclQHMxIv5QRh-P6Py9g

    Just needed to think what Google translate would have named the listing!


    • This reply was modified 27 Jan 2018 16:47 by  Chanceux.
    #1820599
    loopski
    loopski
    Blocked
    Joined: 23 Jan 2013
    Location: deux sèvres
    Total posts: 9778

    I have only used them on 230V so far. Cos they have been used with halogens.
    Essential to get phase and neutral connected correctly.
    I carry a little screw driver with two button cells, tells me all.


    I would lie on top of the stairs and smell the cigar smoke of Castro.

    #1820603
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    elsie
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    Joined: 05 Feb 2007
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 1399

    i might get a couple to put in stock, do you have any? Are they really mains or 12 volt? Voltage choose: AC85V~265V(50Hz)/ DC 12V Editted, found the ones for me: https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Automatique-DC-12V-IR-Infrarouge-Detecteur-de-Mouvement-PIR-Interrupteur-Pour/131888442805?hash=item1eb529edb5:m:mlaYclQHMxIv5QRh-P6Py9g Just needed to think what Google translate would have named the listing!

    <hr />

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Automatic-DC-12V-LED-Light-IR-Infrared-PIR-Motion-Sensor-Switch-Adjustable-New-/352233939947?var=&hash=item90bd998f5b

     


    #1822888
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    The hard drive is now full and is overwriting the oldest recordings with the newest, I had 4 cameras recording, then 5 and now 7 so its all a bit jumbled but by counting how many days of recordings and how many cameras I can deduce that a Itb hard disk will record 4 HD cameras in high resolution for one month or 8 cameras for 2 weeks.

    I cannot actually find how to reduce the recording resolution or frame rate but 15 days of recordings are fine for me.

    When I hear a car door close I can either click the icon on my computer screen or launch the app on the smartphone, if I am in or around the laundry area I can see the monitor and will be putting another one up in the workshop, not sure if I will put one in my apartment now when the computer and:or phone is at hand.

    Guy who is leaning on me to sell visited once again and I showed him the system, he asked how much it cost and I answered honestly – €130 and he nearly fell over! He is president of the syndicate mixte for the aéroport as well as the Office de Tourisme and vice president of the comité départemental de tourisme, they have recently had installed a smaller system at the aéroport at a cost of around €20K and he reckons the images and functionality of mine is far better, the maintenance contract alone is several thousand Euros per year :roll:


    #1822916
    helixhelix
    helixhelix
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    Joined: 21 May 2010
    Location: 39
    Total posts: 394

    I’ve carefully read through this in the hope it would leave me to the nirvana I seek, but it remains gobbledygook.    We are about to go away for a long holiday.  Not something we do often but each time we have we’ve lost the contents of our freezer as we get fuse trips.  Not often, and not due to storms and no one has ever worked out why.

    Anyway we thought of having a simple way of camera remote monitoring the freezer display.  So if it goes we can contact neighbour to pop in and reset the fuse box.  Is there anything that is simple enough for a technical numpty?


    #1822921
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    Tell me what bits were gobbledygook to you and I will explain if I can in simple terms.

    To answer your question, you talk about a fuse tripping and then a neighbour resetting the fuse box not the fuse, is it the main breaker that is tripping or just the fuse feeding the freezer? Does your ADSL connection remain active?

    If all the power goes then there is no way of alerting you without backup power supplies, if just one circuit then my system could send you an E-mail alert (I’ll explain in detail if its relevant), probably the simplest monitoring solution for a numpty like (me but for my previous experience) would be a web-cam, that I have no experience of but reckon its a lot simpler.


French Electrical & Other Building Issues
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