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  • #979840
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    sorrel
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    Joined: 14 Jan 2011
    Location: Montagne Noire 81
    Total posts: 78
    #979841
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    anad2527
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    Joined: 27 Jun 2007
    Location: Gers
    Total posts: 151

    Yes, JSKS, probably very ignorant, but it is the same when physicists discuss among themselves certain topics, when you have limited knowledge it is hard to follow , so it is better to say nothing at all

    and most of all, if you do say something, do it in a polite and humble way

    actually , I don´t mean you, your contributions are balanced

    #979842
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    anad2527
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    Joined: 27 Jun 2007
    Location: Gers
    Total posts: 151

    Sorrel:Thank you for that article!

    #979843
    jsks
    jsks
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    Joined: 03 Sep 2010
    Location: Potatoshire, North Yorkshire and Co Cork soon?
    Total posts: 5674

    @sorrel wrote:

    http://www.cancerdecisions.com/content/view/414/2/lang,english/ :?:

    Some pertinent quotes from his website:

    ”Although not a medical doctor”

    ”Moss was a founding advisor to the National Institutes of Health’s Office of Alternative Medicine (now the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine or NCCAM) and to the NIH Cancer Advisory Panel on Complementary and Alternative Medicine (CAP-CAM)”

    So, no conflict of interest there, then.

    And the article you quote remains unreferenced and without methodology.

    #979844
    jsks
    jsks
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    Joined: 03 Sep 2010
    Location: Potatoshire, North Yorkshire and Co Cork soon?
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    @anad2527 wrote:

    Yes, JSKS, probably very ignorant, but it is the same when physicists discuss among themselves certain topics, when you have limited knowledge it is hard to follow , so it is better to say nothing at all

    and most of all, if you do say something, do it in a polite and humble way

    actually , I don´t mean you, your contributions are balanced

    In terms of medical research, there are countless articles, studies etc related to all fields of medicine. Some good, some rubbish. However, when assessing the effects of therapy it is essential to show that the proposed therapy has benefits above the placebo effect. This is easily done in controlled, double-blind, randomized trials. These are absent in the world of homeopathy.

    It would be more fruitful to produce results of properly structured trials than to simply expect customers to believe assertions and statements unsupported by evidence.

    While it is perfectly possible that homeopathic remedies may be effective compared to no therapy at all, it is essential to show that this is an effect that can be demonstrated as superior to the placebo effect.

    In case you think I am ignorant I would ask you to respect my 2 medical degrees and 30 years experience in medicine and surgery (now retired) including the conduct and interpretation of clinical trials. I and others would be only too happy to find an easy solution to difficult or insoluble medical problems. What we do not have is any reliable evidence of clinical effectiveness of homeopathy. Would you care to consider quoting successful trials rather than suggesting that those who oppose your unsupported assertions are ignorant. Proof is more compelling than bald assertions.

    #979845
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    sorrel
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    Joined: 14 Jan 2011
    Location: Montagne Noire 81
    Total posts: 78

    http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedi … &O=Generic

    Here’s another

    :?:


    #979846
    jsks
    jsks
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    @sorrel wrote:

    http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2006&PID=15735&Category=2664&O=Generic

    Here’s another

    :?:

    Duh!

    Where is the control group that received ”inactive” water. How were the subjects selected? At random? How many subjects were withdrawn from the trial? I could go on but can’t be bothered. In medical terms it is meaningless – or would be dismissed as flawed to the extent of irrelevance.

    I spent many years peer-reviewing studies. Keep them coming, though, because it would be startling and humbling to find a properly constructed study to support homeopathic therapy.

    #979847
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    anad2527
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    Joined: 27 Jun 2007
    Location: Gers
    Total posts: 151

    Fully agree.
    But there are many trials already. Unfortunately also many trials done without respecting the principles of homeopathy. You can´t do a trial on depression for example and give the same remedy to each test person. because in homeopathy you have to find an INDIVIDUAL remedy, that is the CRUX. So these trials are just very difficult. But the results of trials that were done respecting these principles are very promising. Homeopathy was always better than placebo.

    #979848
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    sawyer
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    Joined: 15 Mar 2008
    Location: Bastille
    Total posts: 662

    Where is the evidence that it always did better than placebo? It is never forthcoming.

    When you rea


    nora.sanglante

    #979849
    jsks
    jsks
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    Location: Potatoshire, North Yorkshire and Co Cork soon?
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    It’s worth pointing out that there are many vested interests in medicine, pharmacology etc that are expert at conducting trials that demonstrate a desired outcome. Sadly, I am not particularly eloquent in these matters but for anyone truly interested in scientific accuracy and how to manipulate trials then I can do no better than re4commend the excellent book ”Bad Science” by Dr Ben Goldacre:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bad-Science-Ben … 640&sr=8-1

    Not only is it well-written, it is not too turgid!

    #979850
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    anad2527
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    Joined: 27 Jun 2007
    Location: Gers
    Total posts: 151

    Sorry, I am trying to work inbetween this discussion, don´t have the time to post trials, but will do as soon as possible.

    #979851
    jsks
    jsks
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    Location: Potatoshire, North Yorkshire and Co Cork soon?
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    @anad2527 wrote:

    Fully agree.
    But there are many trials already. Unfortunately also many trials done without respecting the principles of homeopathy. You can´t do a trial on depression for example and give the same remedy to each test person. because in homeopathy you have to find an INDIVIDUAL remedy, that is the CRUX. So these trials are just very difficult. But the results of trials that were done respecting these principles are very promising. Homeopathy was always better than placebo.

    Empirical solutions to individual problems are always fraught with difficulty. Where is the evidence to support your last sentence?

    #979852
    jsks
    jsks
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    @anad2527 wrote:

    Sorry, I am trying to work inbetween this discussion, don´t have the time to post trials, but will do as soon as possible.

    Excellent. I will be quite happy to eat my laptop should you come up with even one that is not flawed.

    Incidentally, the question is not whether health or well-being benefits can be demonstrated – clearly they can considering the power of placebo – the question is whether homeopathic remedies offer any benefit over placebo. So unless a placebo effect is ruled out (by using a double-blind, randomised, controlled trial methodology) it is pointless to waste time reading them!

    #979853
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    nounours
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    Joined: 23 Feb 2009
    Location: 12
    Total posts: 1148
    anad2527 wrote:
    And some clarification for nounours:

    ignorant, because you can tell from the answers that the knowledge of homeopathy is very limited (you have to devote quite an amount of time in order to understand)
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
    and

    arrogant, because of the language they use,usually no manners whatsoever and insulting[/quote


    #979854
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    anad2527
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    Joined: 27 Jun 2007
    Location: Gers
    Total posts: 151

    something else:

    Homeopathic Potentization Based on Nanoscale Domains.
    Czerlinski G, Ypma T.
    Source

    1 Department of Biology, Western Washington University , Bellingham, WA.
    Abstract

    Abstract Objectives: The objectives of this study were to present a simple descriptive and quantitative model of how high potencies in homeopathy arise. Design: The model begins with the mechanochemical production of hydrogen and hydroxyl radicals from water and the electronic stabilization of the resulting nanodomains of water molecules. The life of these domains is initially limited to a few days, but may extend to years when the electromagnetic characteristic of a homeopathic agent is copied onto the domains. This information is transferred between the original agent and the nanodomains, and also between previously imprinted nanodomains and new ones. The differential equations previously used to describe these processes are replaced here by exponential expressions, corresponding to simplified model mechanisms. Magnetic stabilization is also involved, since these long-lived domains apparently require the presence of the geomagnetic field. Our model incorporates this factor in the formation of the long-lived compound. Results: Numerical simulation and graphs show that the potentization mechanism can be described quantitatively by a very simplified mechanism. The omitted factors affect only the fine structure of the kinetics. Measurements of pH changes upon absorption of different electromagnetic frequencies indicate that about 400 nanodomains polymerize to form one cooperating unit. Singlet excited states of some compounds lead to dramatic changes in their hydrogen ion dissociation constant, explaining this pH effect and suggesting that homeopathic information is imprinted as higher singlet excited states. Conclusions: A simple description is provided of the process of potentization in homeopathic dilutions. With the exception of minor details, this simple model replicates the results previously obtained from a more complex model. While excited states are short lived in isolated molecules, they become long lived in nanodomains that form coherent cooperative aggregates controlled by the geomagnetic field. These domains either slowly emit biophotons or perform specific biochemical work at their target.

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