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  • #863544
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    chrisieb
    Blocked
    Joined: 25 Jun 2008
    Location: Here, there, everywhere, but always in France!
    Total posts: 3376

    @tomdenne wrote:

    From The European Jewish Press…

    Sarkozy’s grandfather, Aron Mallah, nicknamed Benkio, immigrated to France, where he converted to Catholicism and changed his name to Benedict in order to marry a French Christian girl named Adele Bouvier.

    Although Benedict integrated fully into French society, he remained close to his Jewish family and culture. Knowing he was still considered Jewish by blood, he hid his family in the village of Marcillac la Croisille in western France during World War II.

    During the Holocaust, many of the Mallahs who stayed in Salonika or moved to France were deported to concentration and extermination camps. In total, 57 family members were murdered by the Nazis. Testimonies reveal that several revolted against the Nazis.

    :?
    Tom

    :idea:

    A late Latin word that entered Old French language many moons ago – ipocrite.

    Simples, Tom! :wink:

    Kindest regards
    Chrissie


    #863545
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    bassman
    Participant
    Joined: 25 Apr 2006
    Location: Surrey and Finistiere Dept 29
    Total posts: 153

    Hmmmmmmm

    they WON’T work , even if jobs were readily available , it doesn’t go with their culture and way of life. They won’t respect lots of laws , either , and things may get hard for their neighbours

    I disagree. I believe your comments in this paragraph are largely based on years, generations even, of common misconception and biased reporting. Not bias on your part, bias exhibited by folks of yesteryear. However, you could be right, and I won’t argue with that possibility. In that case, self-fulfilling prophesy could become an aspect worthy of consideration.

    a bit on the fence myself on this thread but can I just make a point of my own experience with Romany Gypsies in the UK??

    I worked for many years in the Employment Service a couple of instances of the above stick very well in my memory

    1. When working in the Epsom office I interviewed a young Romany girl about finding work she stated that that wasn’t possible as she was not allowed out on her own ( her brother was sat outside my office waiting for her) and she was not allowed in the company of men without a male member of her family present, this meant she could not possibly work although she was claiming benefits saying she was available for work :?

    2. When at the Woking office I interviewed a middle aged Romany gentleman who when asked about seeking work said ” we are not like you sir we don’t go to work” he was very pleasant and polite but insistant that Romanies do not go to work!

    as said two of many experiences with Romanies but ones that stuck in my mind particularly :wink:


    #863546
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    Tricia
    Participant
    Joined: 20 Jul 2003
    Location: SW Gers
    Total posts: 6477

    As Redbidet said above, they need a titre de sejour and work permit in order to be able to work in France.
    As I said earlier a young Roumanian woman told me she wasn’t allowed to work.
    So why do they come?
    Like Bassman, I’m on the fence with this one.


    Tricia

    #863547
    cardi
    cardi
    Participant
    Joined: 16 Feb 2007
    Location: West Wales, Villefagnan 16 and Niteroi, RJ.
    Total posts: 1846

    @tricia wrote:

    As Redbidet said above, they need a titre de sejour and work permit in order to be able to work in France.
    As I said earlier a young Roumanian woman told me she wasn’t allowed to work.
    So why do they come?

    I’m thinking that things like work permits and titres de sejour do not matter much to Roma. They survive as best they can outside the minor details of the bureaucratic maze which the rest of us have to navigate.

    They are here and they are there because it is their way of life and they are a part of European society. Moving them around forcibly will give Sarko some short term cred with the masses and that’s it.

    Maybe some background could help:–

    Mystery Surrounds Roma Migration

    The website Migration Information.org says, “Around the year 1000 (CE), an event in northern India, about the time of Muslim invaders, likely triggered their (the Roma) mass exodus. The precise event is still unknown, but the possible reasons include a conflict that resulted in the Roma’s persecution, a natural disaster, or even recruitment into a mercenary military.”

    They moved slowly west and north; their trek can be traced from various words in their own language which they picked up along the way from Kurdish, Persian, and Greek.

    They reached Greece early in the 14th century. Two hundred years later they showed up in Scandinavia, Russia, and the British Isles. Today, they are found throughout the world but their heaviest concentration is in south-eastern Europe. The European population is estimated at between six and eight million; worldwide, there may be as many as 12 million Roma.
    Roma Have Been Persecuted for Centuries

    For hundreds of years, the Roma have been among the most persecuted minorities in the world. According to Migration Information.org some European nations “dealt with the Roma by shipping them overseas, mainly to various Caribbean islands and the present-day United States. In the 1860s, Roma from Britain arrived in the U.S., but the largest wave of Roma arrived in the early 1900s.”
    Read on
    Gypsy History in Eastern Europe
    Where Did the Gypsies Originate?
    Romani Cuisine: Gypsy Ingredients & Cooking Ethics

    In 1697, and again in 1701, the Roma were declared “outlaws” by Leopold I, the Austrian emperor. In 1710, all adult male Roma were to be hanged without trial, and it was ordered that women and young men were to be flogged and banished. In Bohemia, their right ears were to be cut off; in Moravia, the left ear; in parts of Austria, they were to be branded on the back.

    They were enslaved in what is modern Romania from the 14th century until 1863. Hitler’s Nazis murdered between 200,000 and 800,000 Roma in concentration camps, and the Soviet Union under Stalin treated them with almost equal cruelty.
    Discrimination Continues Today

    Marchevo in Bulgaria is said to be typical of the type of communities that the Roma are forced into today. The Economist reported on this ghetto on May 10, 2001, in the article “Europe’s Spectral Nation.” In Marchevo, there is one water pipe for the 400 residents, no sewer system, and no garbage collection. The people live under blankets and plastic sheets draped over branches hacked from a nearby forest. The most educated person in the community left school at the age of 15. “All those of working age are unemployed,” wrote The Economist. “Families survive on small welfare payments and on what they can forage. They have neither electricity nor gas.”


    Criminals are never very amusing. It's because they're failures. Those who make real money aren't counted as criminals. This is a class distinction, not an ethical problem. Orson Welles

    #863548
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    pp-chris
    Member
    Joined: 28 Jul 2005
    Location: Somewhere in the woods in La Vienne, (86) France
    Total posts: 1785

    Bit risky cardi, posting educational material and facts on TF, next thing is you’ll expect people to read it.

    Chris


    http://www.planetepassion.eu

    Association Planete Passion - Wildlife in France in the English language.

    #863549
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    pp-chris
    Member
    Joined: 28 Jul 2005
    Location: Somewhere in the woods in La Vienne, (86) France
    Total posts: 1785

    Well, the French and the Italians have certainly raised the profile of these people….

    The trouble with the Roma

    Chris


    http://www.planetepassion.eu

    Association Planete Passion - Wildlife in France in the English language.

    #863550
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    kathyf
    Participant
    Joined: 14 Feb 2007
    Location: Mid-Wales/Southern Manche
    Total posts: 185

    Excellent article, Chris. Thanks for posting the link.

    #863551
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    janes
    Participant
    Joined: 08 Dec 2003
    Location: Gone
    Total posts: 1092

    Yes, thanks for that, Chris.


    The revolution is just a T-shirt away.... http://nowhereonthames.blogspot.com

    #863552
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    rivercottage
    Member
    Joined: 02 Mar 2010
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 137

    @newboy2010 wrote:

    One outside our chemist last week,a young Roma girl,had a sheet of A4 with badly printed ”give to invalid children” and a small picture of a wheelchair,she pestered an old lady,who gave her some change,which she refused,so the woman gave her a €5 note to be left alone,much easier to carry and leaves more room in the pocket,make of this what you will,i’m sure you TF members could find a worthy Roma charity to save these kids standing out in the rain bless’em.Have anyone seen the mansions they are having built back in Roumania???

    I’m curious to know how you know she was Romanian.

    The Roma aren’t just from Romania, the term having been adopted to encompass all people who trace their descent from the Indian sub-continent. Many Roma are also French nationals. There are also two Roma MEP in Brussels.

    The comparison with the Holocause is also a valid one imo, bearing in mind that the Roma were persecuted by the Nazis, experimented on by Mengels, deported TO the Warsaw Ghettos and exterminated in Auschwitz.


    #863553
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    karunia
    Member
    Joined: 30 Sep 2006
    Location: Languedoc - 34
    Total posts: 495

    Cardi – thank you so much for the historical background – one never knows enough.


    #863554
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    newboy2010
    Member
    Joined: 08 Jul 2010
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 26

    Rivercottage,it’s strange to you i suppose,but it’s like knowing that in a small community someone is black,asian,chinese etc.


    #863555
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    karunia
    Member
    Joined: 30 Sep 2006
    Location: Languedoc - 34
    Total posts: 495

    Chris, thank you too for the article – again, more background.

    It is at times like this, when the forum can be such a good source of information, that it is almost worth putting up with the rest. :?


    #863556
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    ivanchonov
    Participant
    Joined: 27 Feb 2010
    Location: Morbihan , Brittany
    Total posts: 48

    @cardi wrote:

    Marchevo in Bulgaria is said to be typical of the type of communities that the Roma are forced into today. The Economist reported on this ghetto on May 10, 2001, in the article “Europe’s Spectral Nation.” In Marchevo, there is one water pipe for the 400 residents, no sewer system, and no garbage collection. The people live under blankets and plastic sheets draped over branches hacked from a nearby forest. The most educated person in the community left school at the age of 15. “All those of working age are unemployed,” wrote The Economist. “Families survive on small welfare payments and on what they can forage. They have neither electricity nor gas.

    …and they are LOTS of towns in Bulgaria where Roma do have water , electricity and gas – and they haven’t paid for those services in YEARS :? – but , as it was stated before ,

    things like work permits and titres de sejour do not matter much to Roma. They survive as best they can outside the minor details of the bureaucratic maze which the rest of us have to navigate.

    ….and the things that Roma don’t give a damn about include keeping their environment clean (that could mean YOUR town) , paying for services that we all pay taxes to get , or anyone’s private property :roll:

    But we should be tolerant , of course , after all :

    @bassman wrote:

    2. When at the Woking office I interviewed a middle aged Romany gentleman who when asked about seeking work said “ we are not like you sir we don’t go to work” he was very pleasant and polite but insistant that Romanies do not go to work!

    …the guy was a racist , methinks :lol::lol::lol:


    "Plus j'aime mon métier, moins j'aime ma profession" J.L Godard

    #863557
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    pp-chris
    Member
    Joined: 28 Jul 2005
    Location: Somewhere in the woods in La Vienne, (86) France
    Total posts: 1785

    Is there any small chance of some evidence for all you wild statements IvanChonov?

    You know, perhaps a link or two to some vaguely reliable source?

    Or are you just a ranter?

    Chris, (it’s a great year for walnuts). :D:D:D


    http://www.planetepassion.eu

    Association Planete Passion - Wildlife in France in the English language.

    #863558
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    newboy2010
    Member
    Joined: 08 Jul 2010
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 26

    Right on Ivan !! I suppose if we discuss the uk gypsies we will be going off topic,but at least the Roma travellers have travelled to ply their illicit trades,whereas most uk gypsies have never been off their reservations,and call themselves travellers inferring that they are a different breed,for various reasons.


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