Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 701 total)
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  • #969990
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    adrianpmills
    Participant
    Joined: 25 Jun 2005
    Location: France
    Total posts: 861

    I telephoned them this morning. I spoke to a tax inspector (who refused to give me her name), she explained that the tax convention had changed but could not point out the relevant clause that had changed to allow these charges. I have sent an email contesting the charges and I have a (probably worthhless) promise that it will be dealt with rapidly. In the unlikely event I am successful without having to engage in the usual long battle then I will share the email and the response.


    #969991
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    parsnips
    Participant
    Joined: 18 Aug 2008
    Location: charente - maritime 17
    Total posts: 2424

    @adrianpmills wrote:

    Here’s a more detailed explanation. I don’t know if these are mixed messages or whether the first article omits to say the a credit should be applied against any social charges. Confusing to say the least:

    http://www.blevinsfranks.com/EN/news/104/820?newsCategoryPK=

    Hi,
    This BF article is a complete garbled mish-mash! The “taux effectif “method is not used for govt. pensions and rent under the new treaty.
    There is no credit for UK tax paid on such income — the gross exempt UK income is assessed for french tax along with all other income and then a credit equal to the extra FRENCH tax is given against the “notional” tax bill. UK tax is assessed and due in the UK , and is of NO interest to the french.

    On dividends the credit of 11.2% (not 10%) is not given against social charges, which are subject to full “prelevements sociaux”.

    This article is so badly and erroneously written , that I can only think it is deigned to confuse , and maybe drive people into the clutches of financial advisers


    like for instance “Blevins Franks”.


    #969992
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    bellab
    Participant
    Joined: 08 Apr 2011
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 26

    @wrangler501 wrote:

    Thanks for that Parsnips.

    Our letter to the Impots is now ready to go. It has taken my wife all weekend to write it! Will let the forum know how we fare.

    Dear Wrangler501, is this a letter to claim that the social charges should NOT be levied? If so I would very much appreciate a copy. I hope you do not think I am being cheeky asking but my French is fairly basic and my knowledge of tax etc even more so. With two young children at school and a business to try and work at any help given would be very much appreciated :-)

    thank you


    #969993
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    wrangler501
    Participant
    Joined: 05 Jul 2006
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 38

    BellaB

    I have pm’d you


    #969994
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    adrianpmills
    Participant
    Joined: 25 Jun 2005
    Location: France
    Total posts: 861

    If this helps anyone, the email I sent, personal details excluded. No guarantee of success!!

    Suite a un conversation téléphone aujourd‘hui je conteste le montant de €xxxx de prélèvements sociaux qui constitue un impôt français sur les revenus fonciers provenants du Royaume-Uni. Selon la convention de 9 Janvier 2010 entre la France et le Royaume-Uni ces revenus sont imposables en Royaume-Uni, comme ils étaient imposables en Royaume-Uni selon la convention précédente.

    La convention se trouve ici:

    http://www.impot.gouv.fr/portal/deploie … e_4688.pdf

    Les extraits ci-dessous:

    Selon Article 1b) ci-dessous, les prélèvements sociaux sont un “impôt francais”.

    Selon Article 6, les revenus fonciers provenant de la location d’un bien immobilier situé dans Royaume-Uni sont imposables en Royaume-Uni.

    Selon Article 24, les revenus qui sont imposables au Royaume-Uni et pris en compte pour le calcul de l’impôt français mais le résident de France a droit, à un crédit d’impôt imputable sur l’impôt français. Ce crédit d’impôt est égal au montant de l’impôt français correspondant à ces revenus à condition que le résident de France soit soumis à l’impôt du Royaume-Uni à raison de ces revenus.

    Article 1b) en ce qui concerne la France, tous les impôts perçus pour le compte de l’Etat ou de ses collectivités locales, quel que soit le système de perception, sur le revenu total ou sur des éléments du revenu, y compris les impôts sur les gains provenant de l’aliénation de biens mobiliers ou immobiliers, les impôts sur le montant global des salaires payés par les entreprises, ainsi que les impôts sur les plus-values, et notamment :
    (i) l’impôt sur le revenu ;
    (ii) l’impôt sur les sociétés ;
    (iii) la contribution sociale sur l’impôt sur les sociétés ;
    (iv) la taxe sur les salaires ;
    (v) les contributions sociales généralisées ;
    (vi) les contributions pour le remboursement de la dette sociale ;

    (ci-après dénommés « impôt français »).

    Article 6
    Revenus immobiliers
    1. Les revenus provenant de biens immobiliers (y compris les revenus des exploitations agricoles ou forestières) situés dans un Etat contractant sont imposables dans cet Etat.

    3. Les dispositions du paragraphe 1 s’appliquent aux revenus provenant de l’exploitation directe, de la location ou de l’affermage, ainsi que de toute autre forme d’exploitation des biens immobiliers.

    Article 24
    Elimination des doubles impositions
    3. En ce qui concerne la France, les doubles impositions sont éliminées de la manière suivante :
    a) nonobstant toute autre disposition de la présente Convention, les revenus qui sont
    imposables ou ne sont imposables qu’au Royaume-Uni conformément aux dispositions de la présente Convention sont pris en compte pour le calcul de l’impôt français lorsqu’ils ne sont pas exemptés de l’impôt sur les sociétés en application de la législation interne française. Dans ce cas, l’impôt du Royaume-Uni n’est pas déductible de ces revenus, mais le résident de France a droit, sous réserve des conditions et limites prévues aux alinéas (i) et (ii) et au paragraphe 4, à un crédit d’impôt imputable sur l’impôt français. Ce crédit d’impôt est égal :
    (i) pour les revenus non mentionnés à l’alinéa (ii), au montant de l’impôt français correspondant à ces revenus à condition que le résident de France soit soumis à l’impôt du Royaume-Uni à raison de ces revenus.


    #969995
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    angel
    Participant
    Joined: 17 Feb 2004
    Location: South Deux Sèvres
    Total posts: 359

    @wrangler501 wrote:

    As a matter of interest, how many reading this thread are in the same boat. And at which Tax Offices? Are there any who have been treated correctly?
    I’m 79 St Maixent L”Ecole Impots.

    We don’t have any Uk income so only have the social charges on our french income to worry about but, 2 sets of local friends of ours, retired with only UK pension income, have had these demands. They’re off to our local impots, also at St Maixent, armed with copies of various treaties & conventions I’ve sent them thanks to this and similar postings elsewhere. They’re going with a bilingual french friend. Will report back how they get on.


    "Cats are kindly masters, just so long as you remember your place"

    #969996
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    carod
    Participant
    Joined: 03 Oct 2008
    Location: 86 Vienne
    Total posts: 8

    @angel wrote:

    @wrangler501 wrote:

    As a matter of interest, how many reading this thread are in the same boat. And at which Tax Offices? Are there any who have been treated correctly?
    I’m 79 St Maixent L”Ecole Impots.

    We also have this bill, our only income is from UK govmnt pension & UK rent. We have been to tax office who say we owe it. We now have to write a letter to consilateur.
    We are in dept 86 – Montmorillon
    I agree its a good idea if we get Connexions paper involved??


    #969997
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    mangetout
    Participant
    Joined: 12 Jun 2011
    Location: Dept 49 Maine et Loire
    Total posts: 915

    @phillippe wrote:

    Some time ago this was published and therefore I am wondering if this could explain why they have widened their net…..only a thought!

    Tuesday 18 November 2008

    The French government is proposing to widen the net on the imposition of French social charges on foreign earnings and pensions.

    The debate on the application of the social charges CGS and CRDS on foreign source earnings reared its ugly head again earlier this year. The French social security collections agency URSSAF, invoking European regulation 1408/71, attempted to levy CSG and CRDS charges on the UK earnings

    Why shouldn’t you pay Social charges on unearned income of this kind? After all, if you have interest from savings accounts in the UK, you pay income tax and social charges. Why should rental income be any different?


    #969998
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    phillippe
    Participant
    Joined: 23 Mar 2007
    Location: 33
    Total posts: 399

    I agree with you Mangetout 100%. I really dont know why people think their UK rental income should not have these charges, French rental income has these charges. Then again there are a number of people who do not declare their holiday rental income!! just put it in their back pocket but thats another topic for a rainy day!

    The text I quoted re…Tuesday 18 November 2008 was from ****….. (it gets deleted by the moderators ), but it sends us a newsletter every month with excellent French news .


    What the caterpillar thinks is the end of the world, the rest of the world calls a butterfly.

    #969999
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    debra
    Participant
    Joined: 05 Dec 2008
    Location: Charente
    Total posts: 5278

    @mangetout wrote:

    @phillippe wrote:

    Some time ago this was published and therefore I am wondering if this could explain why they have widened their net…..only a thought!

    Tuesday 18 November 2008

    The French government is proposing to widen the net on the imposition of French social charges on foreign earnings and pensions.

    The debate on the application of the social charges CGS and CRDS on foreign source earnings reared its ugly head again earlier this year. The French social security collections agency URSSAF, invoking European regulation 1408/71, attempted to levy CSG and CRDS charges on the UK earnings

    Why shouldn’t you pay Social charges on unearned income of this kind? After all, if you have interest from savings accounts in the UK, you pay income tax and social charges. Why should rental income be any different?

    Because under the taxation treaty, social charges are classed as taxes and income from immovable property (ie rent) is taxable in the country in which it is situated and not in the country of residence?


    #970000
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    debra
    Participant
    Joined: 05 Dec 2008
    Location: Charente
    Total posts: 5278

    @phillippe wrote:

    French rental income has these charges.

    That is because the property is in France – though not necessarily the landlord.


    #970001
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    6079smith
    Participant
    Joined: 01 Jan 2010
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 17

    Same here. over 1KE for rental income overseas.
    A big thanks to all the contributors for their insights. I will post the results.


    #970002
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    adrianpmills
    Participant
    Joined: 25 Jun 2005
    Location: France
    Total posts: 861

    @mangetout wrote:

    @phillippe wrote:

    Some time ago this was published and therefore I am wondering if this could explain why they have widened their net…..only a thought!

    Tuesday 18 November 2008

    The French government is proposing to widen the net on the imposition of French social charges on foreign earnings and pensions.

    The debate on the application of the social charges CGS and CRDS on foreign source earnings reared its ugly head again earlier this year. The French social security collections agency URSSAF, invoking European regulation 1408/71, attempted to levy CSG and CRDS charges on the UK earnings

    Why shouldn’t you pay Social charges on unearned income of this kind? After all, if you have interest from savings accounts in the UK, you pay income tax and social charges. Why should rental income be any different?

    Because if you are resident in France:

    If you have interest from savings accounts in the UK, then it is taxable in France and not the UK.

    If you have rental income from the UK, then it is taxable in the UK and not in France.

    You seem to think it is reasonable to tax the same income in both countries. You are wrong. You should pay tax but only once and that is why there are conventions to protect you. You are making the same mistaken point over and over again without any attempt to undertand what the situation actually is.


    #970003
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    phillippe
    Participant
    Joined: 23 Mar 2007
    Location: 33
    Total posts: 399

    Sorry, I did not perhaps make myself clear, I was NOT referring to paying income tax on UK rentals but on the application of the social charges CGS and CRDS on the income from UK Rental.
    The French Gov seems to be pulling money in from more sources see…..
    I have noticed today on another forum QUOTE-
    We paid CSG when we were resident in France.
    However, for several years we have not lived there and paid tax due on gite income to non resident department in Paris. This year for the first time we have just received a bill for CSG as well as usual tax.
    Has the situation changed? Do non-residents now pay CSG – I thought this was just contributions to social fund that were paid by residents.

    You do wonder what on earth is going on with these departments, more and more seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet! It’s a bit worrying


    What the caterpillar thinks is the end of the world, the rest of the world calls a butterfly.

    #970004
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    debra
    Participant
    Joined: 05 Dec 2008
    Location: Charente
    Total posts: 5278

    I seem to remember a post somewhere on here where our resident expert, parsnips, explained that CSG was now classed as a tax whereas it wasn’t on the old treaty – so that does change things somewhat, from various angles.

    What I can’t remember is whether the rule about CSG only being charged to those who benefit from the French healthcare system still stands – ie non-residents or people with E121’s don’t pay it.

    Anyone know?

    (excuse me if I’ve asked this before – my memory is rapidly shrinking!)


French Tax and Law
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