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  • #1824217
    honeybeefrance
    honeybeefrance
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    Joined: 05 Jun 2014
    Location: France
    Total posts: 226

    just had coffee at a french friends house and noticed that he had a debflex int diff wired with the power in to the bottom and then a ‘teeth bar’ thingy from the top connecting to all the disjoncteurs. Surely thats the wrong way round?

     


    #1824237
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    michael86
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    Joined: 02 Jul 2007
    Location: Vienne 86
    Total posts: 197

    Hi honeybeefrance.

    I think that’s the correct way for Debflex. Some other makes are the opposite way round. There is usually a little diagram on the interrupteur differential to show how it needs to be connected.

    Michael


    #1824261
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    An ID will work in either direction, mine are bottom in – top out so the disjoncteurs fed from them via the peignes are top in bottom out, I have some Debflex ID’s and others are the happysunnygoluckyitchykk-kooallnightlongcompanyschenzingtingalingaolong aring-o-roses makes  ;-)

     

    They are all universal, the disjoncteur d’abonnées can also be used in either direction.


    #1824265
    honeybeefrance
    honeybeefrance
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    Joined: 05 Jun 2014
    Location: France
    Total posts: 226

    Can that be correct, they work either way round?

     


    #1824272
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    mikej
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    Joined: 21 Jun 2011
    Location: Dordogne sometimes and Kent the rest
    Total posts: 5287

    If you think about it for a while, the tooth type thing can’t connect to the disjoncteurs without being the opposite of the ID, i.e. the main power comes into the bottom of the ID and out the top via the tooth type thing to connect at the top of the disjoncteurs and therefore the protected circuits connect at the bottom.

    Mike


    WFIPFLL

    #1824273
    robertarthur
    robertarthur
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    Joined: 29 Nov 2010
    Location: Nièvre (58)
    Total posts: 2157

    For a device measuring current differences in two wires input/output, left/right, top/bottom questions do not matter. Mechanical lay out and wiring regs and practices do matter:

    Type 1, type 2, type 3 and type 4.

    Teeth bars (peignes de raccordement): good practice for many years already and in the French electrical code,  the Amendement 5 of 2015.

     


    RA

    #1824274
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    fittersmate
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    Joined: 08 Jun 2009
    Location: Brittany France dept 56
    Total posts: 1624

    I have recently wired a Debflex tableau in to supply the workshop, the input is at the top, output at the bottom.

    I didn’t use harmonicas (toothed bars) because our useless local brico didn’t have any – did it with 4.0 mm solid links instead.


    #1824277
    honeybeefrance
    honeybeefrance
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    Joined: 05 Jun 2014
    Location: France
    Total posts: 226

    For a device measuring current differences in two wires input/output, left/right, top/bottom questions do not matter. Mechanical lay out and wiring regs and practices do matter: Type 1, type 2, type 3 and type 4. Teeth bars (peignes de raccordement): good practice for many years already and in the French electrical code, the Amendement 5 of 2015.

    <hr />

    RA

    so are you saying whatever it says on the side of the interrupteur you can use both ways?

     


    #1824282
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    100% yes!


    #1824295
    robertarthur
    robertarthur
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    Joined: 29 Nov 2010
    Location: Nièvre (58)
    Total posts: 2157

    @ Honeybee, maybe the last time for an answer here before closing time of this forum. So let’s give it a try. Whatever the instructions provided by the producer, follow them.  On the table in the lab the outcome of tests is the same for top/down or down/top etc. connections. If everything goes well, the currents in coils # 1 and # 2 will be the same, effectively cancelling each other, no magnetic field to measure for coil #3 around the little toroidal transformer  inside a interrupteur différentiel. Bypass coil #2 with a resistor (push test button) and an additional current will be flowing in coil #1. Magnetic field sensed by coil #3 and feeding a miniature switch mechanism. Contacts open.

    In real life we like to switch off the current at the alimentation side, not the load side, and feed the test resistor from the phase. So that’s why I should not have mentioned the theory of the indifference of differential measuring. But  just a simple “follow instructions” advice would have been a meager answer.


    RA

    #1824296
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    michael86
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    Joined: 02 Jul 2007
    Location: Vienne 86
    Total posts: 197

    Sorry, I was wrong, fittersmate is correct. I’ve just looked at a Debflex interrupteur differentiel and it’s in at the top, out at the bottom.

    Michael


    #1824359
    robertarthur
    robertarthur
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    Joined: 29 Nov 2010
    Location: Nièvre (58)
    Total posts: 2157

    @ Honeybee, ten minutes after my quick draft of what’s under the hood of a RCD / interrupteur différentiel I thought, let’s highlight the normal condition where current in = current out. Too late for an edit, so here diagram rev 1.


    RA

    #1824487
    badger
    badger
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    Joined: 04 Dec 2008
    Location: Near Vire (14)
    Total posts: 1408

    I didn’t use harmonicas (toothed bars) because our useless local brico didn’t have any – did it with 4.0 mm solid links instead.

    I hope you are going to replace these when you get the right bit of kit? A bit of 4mm² is not sufficient to take the potential maximum load being drawn through the interrupteur différentiel (ID) feeding that row, which is 63A (the maximum ENEDIS will give you on tarif bleu).

    The rating of the ID is irrelevant as that figure (either 25A, 40A, 63A) is merely their handling capacity, not an over-current tripping level – for that you need a much more expensive “disjoncteur différentiel”.

    I guess you don’t want a fire, or to create the potential of one for the next user of the installation? I’ve seen many melted wire links in my time…… :cry:


    Jonathan Badger - St Germain de Tallevende 14500 http://www.badgerlx.fr

    #1824505
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    Chanceux
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    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    The CSA required is proportional to the length of the conductor Badger but you of all people would of course know that, the thinnest CSA of the peignes is probably around 10mm2.

    I have used 6mm2 between disjoncteurs on my tableaux where a change of make and the sneaky ways the manufacturers change their offsets and/or backset means a peigne cannot be used.

    A tiny filament of wire within a 13a fuse is sufficient to carry the full loading and an overcurrent without failure or excess volt drop although it surely gets hot in there, the internal switch contacts on a DD will not be 10mm2.

    I do my best to use peignes as they are just so much neater and professional, in a couple of cases where the manufacturers mismatches have prevented them fitting I have had to taper the tops of the tines where they connect to the crossbar like a dovetail, still plenty of mm2 of conductor left though.


    #1824507
    robertarthur
    robertarthur
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    Joined: 29 Nov 2010
    Location: Nièvre (58)
    Total posts: 2157

    May be the last time here on the forum, I don’t know. It’s not only the French electrical code by the name of NF C15-100 to take into account, there is much more. Promotelec picked up the essentials of all this in their “L’Officiel de l’Electricité”. In the section where it summarizes the regs for the ” Tableau de répartition principal (N 10.1.4.6)” we read this on page 213:

    “L’alimentation de chaque rangée d’appareillages doit être réalisée:
    * soit au moyen de dispositifs de liaison préfabriqués: verticaux (exemples: barres de pontage, répartiteurs, peignes);
    * soit individuellement par des conducteurs isolés de section 10 mm² issus de répartiteurs de phase et de neutre, quel que soit le courant assigné du disjoncteur de branchement;
    * soit en cascade à partir des bornes d’alimentation des dispositifs de liaison préfabriqués horizontaux. Dans ce cas, la section de ces conducteurs isolés doit être adaptée aux courants d’emploi des rangées alimentées.
    La liaison entre la borne de sortie des protections différentielles divisionnaires et les bornes d’entrée des protections contre les surintensités des circuits terminaux doit être réalisée  à l’aide de dispositifs de liaison préfabriqués horizontaux choisis et mis en oeuvre selon les instructions de leur fabricant. “
    In the old days, only the bathroom protected by a RCD of 25 A, the then existing regs told us to use 6 mm² wiring (or more) for the wiring to feed such a “low power” interrupteur différentiel. Only one or two lights, one or two sockets en probably a little radiateur électrique.

    RA

French Electrical & Other Building Issues
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