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  • #778146
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    vienne
    Participant
    Joined: 15 Oct 2005
    Location: Depth 16
    Total posts: 660

    I’ve read the French wiring book by the English guy and still cannot see a definitive statement that multicores do not need to be in gaines although it touches on it.
    Can anyone confirm, it’s renovation btw if it makes any difference.

    John


    #778147
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    bildabob
    Participant
    Joined: 11 Jan 2006
    Location: dept 85 Vendee 'tween Ste Hermine and Lucon
    Total posts: 301

    @vienne wrote:

    I’ve read the French wiring book by the English guy and still cannot see a definitive statement that multicores do not need to be in gaines although it touches on it.
    Can anyone confirm, it’s renovation btw if it makes any difference

    John

    Personaly i wouldn’t bugger about. use the Gain it don’t cost much and if there is ever a problem the French electricity folks (Eg EDF>) like to see Gain.


    It's up to each of us to join in the passion and the action of our times, or be at peril to be judged that we never lived.

    #778148
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    Chanceux
    Participant
    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    They dont need to be in gaine if they are accessible, or visitable in the case of ceiling voids, vides sanitaires etc.

    In humid areas, sous sols etc they should be in rigid tubing (gaine IRL) although all the jobs I have seen dont use elbows so the cable is exposed at every corner daft as it seems.


    #778149
    robertarthur
    robertarthur
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    Joined: 29 Nov 2010
    Location: Nièvre (58)
    Total posts: 2157

    This week I’ve seen, going back to earlier forum discussions, rather frequently messages as: page non trouvée. Links (or Kinks?) living in dead end street. You can renew these links (not on this website), or do something else. For cable sizes and cable lenghts between the disjoncteur de branchement and the tableau de répartition principal, and cabling inside the consumer unit, I compiled this summary.

    Another compilation, this time 122 run-of-the-mill questions and answers, on the website of Promotelec.

    Picking up more pieces of information. Earthing issues in this Promotelec document, and also here: easy to understand wiring diagrams and a video about the piquet de terre (earth stake). Since its release date in December 2002 the French electrical code has seen three revisions. The first one is not relevant for the most of us. It bundles nine earlier fiches d’interpretation. Which brings us to amendement 2 (A2), covering the wiring (earth) of the bathroom. This is the earlier, more readable information of Promotelec, also available in one of their other documents. Revamping a website is not always a change for the better. This is about the definitions for volumes 0, 1, 2 and 3 in the bathroom, and these are the pictures on leGrand’s website. Last year there has been revision three, A3, with a lot of minor clarifications and changes. These have been indicated with “Attention!” (in orange) in the Hager introductionto the NFC 15-100 electrical code. With these reference documents above you can update your own books of before 2010. Print them, because links on the internet don’t live forever. Schneider produced also a nice introduction to the French wiring of your home: easy to understand pictures, basic knowledge of some French is enough. It seems that these examples didn’t go unnoticed: this is an introduction by ABB.

    For a fully authorised summary of the French electrical code buy Locaux d’habitation, published by Promotelec: members of the board Consuel, EDF and others. Only 15 euros, 148 pages, and only one erratum. And once again, repeating the advice in August 2003 of the Webmaster: don’t forget l’Installation électrique. And of course you can buy the complete text of the French electrical code NFC 15-100, in the internet shop of the French AFNOR organisation, 315 euros HT. Because every French citizen has the constitutional right to be informed about the laws he or she is supposed to obey, without paying for them, you can also consult them online (copy/print: not possible). See article 17 in Décret n° 2009-697 du 16 juin 2009 relatif à la normalisation. You have to register as a client on the AFNOR website, install the plug-in FileOpen for Adobe Reader, click on “Consulter” and follow the instructions.

    Department returning questions. How to connect a so called tableau supplémentaire: this is the wiring diagram, this is about wiring gauge and maximum distance in meters for single-phase and a voltage drop of 2%. These are minimum cable sizes, because you will already have a voltage drop between your point de livraison (main breaker), sometimes more than 30 meters away, and your consumer unit. The maximum voltage drop allowed between main breaker (disjoncteur de branchement / DB) and any point d’éclairage is 3%. There are several voltage drops to take into account. That’s why you have to half these lengths in the case where the consumer unit is not “accolé au panneau de comptage“. Its three-phase sibling in the family of consumer units looks like this. Cable size between your DB (disjoncteur de branchement) and your consumer unit, click here. About wiring, an excerpt from an Electrical Opera, 15 pages of one of “the” French books. No copyright problems: it’s on the website of the publishing company Eyrolles, as an appetizer. An estimation of your wiring costs: try this spreadsheet. Almost everything you want to know about wires and cables in this French training course. Something simple: neutral and phase, left or right? Many introductions for the consumer unit modern style, the GTL, also by the ERDF.

    Off-peak electricity for your electric water heater and how to connect this so called fil-pilote stuff: severalsolutions. Conversion from three-phase to single-phase: four standard wiring diagrams of my old Sauter chauffe-eau, using connection bars (barrettes de connexion). More information in this Notice d’installation of Thermor, pages 14/20. Sector plumbing: the installation of an electric water heater.

    What about RCD types A and AC in your French home? At least one type A, read this Promotelec information about Interrupteurs Différentiels (ID), also named Dispositif Différentiel Résiduel (DDR). Also part of the French electrical history and present: the famous télérupteur. The classic one, more than one circuit, complicated and low voltage. Lightning and overvoltage protection, some French diagrams. An electric cable underground, how deep? Most electric cookers and induction hobs for sale in France can be connected in a single-phase or three-phase installation électrique. For the DIY with some experience – three-phase is dangerous, 400 Volts between the live wires – the connection diagrams of NEFF/Siemens, Sauter and AEG show how it should be done. Sometimes on the back of the equipment (IKEA/Whirlpool). These pictures show the equipment side!! You should, in any case, consult the manual of your own cooker or hob for more specific details. In case of doubt, ask a qualified electrician. For these professional electricians this video about le remplacement d’un tableau électrique might be useful. A step-by-step story about almost everything you need to know about l’installation électrique à la française can be found on the website of Volta-Electricité, also the report about updating – mise en conformité – a rather dangerous three-phase consumer unit, and an explanation of the Consuel control procedures. French names in this introduction. To conclude a few links to French wiring diagrams, and this one.

    To conclude? Let’s continue with the connection to the powergrid, the domain of the French electrical code named NFC 14-100 (le raccordement au réseau électrique). Of interest for new builds, and for those buying un terrain constructible. Don’t underestimate the connection costs: if you have to bridge more than a few hundred meters to an ERDF pole, prices can go skyhigh: 30 to 40K. Interesting questions about who is responsible for what, who pays the greater part of the bill. Have a look at these two documents: one describing the changes introduced with the 2003 reforms (detailed maps to clarify different cases), and the other the new legal framework introduced the first of january 2008. Technical information can be found in this UTE document, the presentation in 2008 of the revised NFC 14-100 electrical code, the connection to the power grid. See pages 24-29. The original pdf document has recently been removed from the UTE website, and many others: a pity. And, no surprise, there is also a document of Promotelec. And let’s not forget this ERDF consumer information about the connection to the power grid, also of your solar panels, and some design considerations for those interested in the engineering side of the local power grid. And for the professionals: this is what the ERDF has to say about the price levels for their complete range of connection activities. To keep it simple, have a look at these two pictures: connection lenght to your house more than 30 meters, and less than 30 meters.

    There is now an amendement 1 to this code. The regulations for lotissements (allotments) have been updated, fire security issues identified, definitions rewritten (diference between mode encastré et noyé) etc. Not of interest for the most of us. For the specialists this updated practical guide might be useful.

    More interesting is, as far as I see it, that the ERDF will be supplying monophasé (for new connections that is) only from 3 kVA to 12 kVA. The more powerful 15 kVA and 18 kVA puissances souscrites in monophasé will be phased out, eventually. So you have to go for triphasé if you want more than 12 kVA (60 amps). Or use a system of délestage (load shedding).

    Also some finetuning for the GTL, the consumer unit modern style. Dimensions are more precise, and you are kindly requested to use 2 plaques de BA13 as support when mounting the panneau de contrôle (compteur + disjoncteur de branchement). Isn’t the GTL the domain of the regular NFC 15-100 electrical code? Yes: but only starting at the output of your main breaker. That’s the côté client. Meter and main breaker are “côté fournisseur“. So your GTL is a terrain of mixed competence.

    Robert


    RA

    #778150
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    wanderingkiwi
    Member
    Joined: 08 Jul 2013
    Location: Trowbridge and Normandy
    Total posts: 7

    I’ve got parafin lamps me.Wk.


    #778071
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    mikej
    Participant
    Joined: 21 Jun 2011
    Location: Dordogne sometimes and Kent the rest
    Total posts: 5287

    I have read the whole thread (honest), but don’t seem to be able to find an answer to an earlier question, are galvanised recessed box’s allowed in France? the reason for asking is they are more substantial and are easier to fix back to an uneven surface.

    Mike


    WFIPFLL

    #778070
    robertarthur
    robertarthur
    Participant
    Joined: 29 Nov 2010
    Location: Nièvre (58)
    Total posts: 2157

    Supposing that we are dealing with a tableau électrique and domestic use: in a GTL you will have to take into account the NFC 14-100 regs as well, not allowed I’m afraid, because:

    Lorsque le panneau de contrôle est directement fixé sur la GTL, la tenue de la paroi ou est installée la GTL doit impérativement être M0 et non métallique (voir NF C 14-100 §9.3) ; et ne doit pas être placé ou droit des poutraisons. (source: ERDF)

    Not having the NF C 15-100 regs with me right now, only the little Promotelec summary (édition 2012), we see the same remarks about non métallique on page 25.

    For the use in an industrial environment there is a whole range of solutions, also in metal.

    Interesting, all those differences between electrical codes here in Europe. Noticed last week in Vienna that the metal recessed box is the preferred solution, also in new builds. The Austrian brother of Hager France has got several models for their home market. Look for the word “Stahl”(=steel). The door is also metal, and needs a key to open. Three reasons to fail your Consuel inspection.

    Is the Austrian approach unsafe at any speed of electrons? I doubt it. RA


    RA

    #778069
    badger
    badger
    Participant
    Joined: 04 Dec 2008
    Location: Near Vire (14)
    Total posts: 1408

    @mikej wrote:

    I have read the whole thread (honest), but don’t seem to be able to find an answer to an earlier question, are galvanised recessed box’s allowed in France?

    NF C 15-100 expects conductors to be double insulated, hence no conductive back boxes. However I’ve seen metal tableaux pass inspection without a problem.

    One major advantage of not using metal anywhere is that you don’t need earth conductors at light switches.


    Jonathan Badger - St Germain de Tallevende 14500 http://www.badgerlx.fr

    #778151
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    mikej
    Participant
    Joined: 21 Jun 2011
    Location: Dordogne sometimes and Kent the rest
    Total posts: 5287

    Thanks for the information guys, all seems a bit of a nonsense seeing as the main board is inside a metal enclosure.

    Mike


    WFIPFLL

    #778095
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    mikej
    Participant
    Joined: 21 Jun 2011
    Location: Dordogne sometimes and Kent the rest
    Total posts: 5287

    Useful web site for cable and gaine size’s: http://www.volta-electricite.info/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=7501

    Mike


    WFIPFLL

    #778103
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    Chanceux
    Participant
    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    I have fitted a metal tableau for my services generaux.

    Well actually its a recessed tableau with a metal faceframe and metal door, the internals of the tableau are all plastic hence I assume it has double insulation although not sure that is true where the interrupteurs poke through but that is no different to any tableau.

    What did surprise me though is that there is no provision for grounding the metal door, that goes against all my ingrained instincts but then so does having a metal cased bathroom heater in zone 2 (I think) with no earth.


    #1627141
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    blueshutters1997
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    Joined: 09 Mar 2015
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 4

    Simple question if anyone can help. If my husband rewires (the French way) our house, do we then contact EDF to come and inspect before connection? I imagine a French electrician would not be interested to come and ‘check it out’ before we contacted EDF?

    Like most, its a constant learning curve !

    Thanks in advance for any tips.


    #1627146
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    mikej
    Participant
    Joined: 21 Jun 2011
    Location: Dordogne sometimes and Kent the rest
    Total posts: 5287

    If as you say its a re-wire one assumes you already have an EDF connection?
    Why would you want them to inspect?
    Or is your supply only temporary at the moment?

    Mike


    WFIPFLL

    #1627157
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    Chanceux
    Participant
    Joined: 17 Mar 2010
    Location: Picardie
    Total posts: 13130

    If an existing supply then I actually did exactly what you are proposing for my first installation so as to have the confidence that i was doing it right and to learn from any errors for the remaining apartments.

    I applied for a CONSUEL inspection when I bult my first flat from the remains of the old outbuildings, I didnt need it as I had an existing supply, I did so for the reasons above.

    It was the best €90 or was it €105 that I have ever spent, there is no problem at all with requesting a Consuel inspection on an existing connection that already carries an attestation (and hence doesnt need another to maintain the supply) for your own peace of mind, all the inspecteurs that I have had have been excellent and pragmatic without a trace of the artisan or fonctionnaire mentalities.


    #1629315
    robertarthur
    robertarthur
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    Joined: 29 Nov 2010
    Location: Nièvre (58)
    Total posts: 2157

    Rewiring: so there is already a connection to the grid of the ERDF? Existing installations only have to comply to the regulations in force in the year of the original attestation by the CONSUEL organisation. But as soon as you start adding new circuits etc. you are supposed to follow the regs of today, but no inspection needed. By the way: the government promised a lot of simplifications for the construction regs, also in the electrical code NFC 15-100. There is the sound of silence, should have been published June 15th this year. Could be interesting for those inviting Consuel for an inspection.

    To quote some remarks by the Promotelec organisation, in their 122 questions and answers:

    Toute installation réalisée antérieurement à la date d’homologation d’une norme, doit-elle être systématiquement révisée selon les nouveaux textes ?

    Les normes n’étant pas rétroactives, sur les anciennes installations, il n’y a pas d’obligation de se mettre en conformité avec la norme, tant qu’il n’y a aucune modification, d’extension ou d’adjonction.
    Par contre, si un appareil ou un équipement doit être remplacé, le circuit auquel il est raccordé doit être en bon état et conforme à la norme NF C 15-100.


    RA

French Electrical & Other Building Issues
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