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  • #979755
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    mellon
    Participant
    Joined: 06 Sep 2006
    Location: Norwich, ici et la
    Total posts: 231

    @sorrel wrote:

    There seems to be some obfuscation going on here,the conclusion of the study states that there IS a difference between placebo & homeopathy that is my point…

    There is obfuscation, but on the part of the authors as their conclusions are contradicted by their data ( in this particular instance).


    La vie est dure sans confiture.

    #979754
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    lindal1000
    Participant
    Joined: 09 Jun 2011
    Location: france
    Total posts: 4844

    @halfpint wrote:

    Opalette that has to be the most ridiculous statement ever.

    You more put your health at risk over taking medecine or
    going into hospital than taking homeopathic medecines

    Tell it to the Queen of England, she’s never struck me as a
    foolish woman in any way and I’m fit and healthy cared for
    by homeopathy but you and a couple of others on here
    cannot be budged from your opinions, try homeopathy
    then speak

    The Queen of England does use traditional medicine (I know one of her physicians :lol: )

    I did try homeopathy and other alternative medicines and had I not been able eventually to access traditional medicines I would almost certainly not be here today to talk about it.

    I can’t tell you how p*ssed off I get when someone says to me ‘couldn’t your condition be cured by alternative medicine?’ and ‘have you ever tried ??’ which is usually some untested snake oil type of cure. If anyone thinks anyone would volunteer to take nasty medication to control a disease when there was a nice side effect free option available then you are living in fantasy land. I have tried homeopathy and it didn’t work. You try living with my illness and then speak.


    #979753
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    sorrel
    Member
    Joined: 14 Jan 2011
    Location: Montagne Noire 81
    Total posts: 78

    In fairness Lindal I have used lots of traditional medicine which didn’t work either, & have suffered more with some drug side effects than with the actual disease being treated.

    @ JSKS, you asked why such a small study,
    Quote:
    “we estimated that 60 patients would be required in each group to avoid false negative results”.

    I’m sure that the British Medical Journal would appreciate your
    collective wisdom on here of how trials should be conducted!


    #979752
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    mellon
    Participant
    Joined: 06 Sep 2006
    Location: Norwich, ici et la
    Total posts: 231

    “we estimated that 60 patients would be required in each group to avoid false negative results”.

    Having established this they went on to use 23 in one group and 27 in the other.


    La vie est dure sans confiture.

    #979751
    jsks
    jsks
    Participant
    Joined: 03 Sep 2010
    Location: Potatoshire, North Yorkshire and Co Cork soon?
    Total posts: 5674

    @sorrel wrote:

    In fairness Lindal I have used lots of traditional medicine which didn’t work either, & have suffered more with some drug side effects than with the actual disease being treated.

    @ JSKS, you asked why such a small study,
    Quote:
    “we estimated that 60 patients would be required in each group to avoid false negative results”.

    I’m sure that the British Medical Journal would appreciate your
    collective wisdom on here of how trials should be conducted!

    Okay, we really are on my home turf here as a co-author of several BMW papers. Firstly the BMJ has no say in the conduct of trials, the trial design being the responsibility of the research team. Secondly there are at least 2 contributors on here as well as myself who have a lifetime’s worth of experience in carrying out or interpreting clinical trials.

    You can argue the toss all you want about your belief system but don’t try and imply that my ability to assess clinical trials is wanting. I have appeared in court as an expert witness and given evidence about best practice based on evidence-bssed clinical decision making.

    The trial you highlighted showed some results which would, in a proper clinical discipline, have led on to more extensively designed trials to get a statistically and scientifically valid result.

    Furthermore, if a qualified doctor were to use clinically unproven treatment where proven treatment is available he would be guilty of malpractice. I know this doesn’t apply to homeopathy because a. The practitioners are not accountable and b. The water they prescribe does no harm because it is only water.

    #979750
    jsks
    jsks
    Participant
    Joined: 03 Sep 2010
    Location: Potatoshire, North Yorkshire and Co Cork soon?
    Total posts: 5674

    @mellon wrote:

    “we estimated that 60 patients would be required in each group to avoid false negative results”.

    Having established this they went on to use 23 in one group and 27 in the other.

    I think you are making the mistake of interpreting the paper for what it is rather than what you want it to be!!!

    #979749
    jsks
    jsks
    Participant
    Joined: 03 Sep 2010
    Location: Potatoshire, North Yorkshire and Co Cork soon?
    Total posts: 5674

    Please note that I haven’t written any BMW papers. My phones keyboard rendered BMJ as BMW in the post above.

    The joys of waiting outside Sainsbury!

    #979748
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    sorrel
    Member
    Joined: 14 Jan 2011
    Location: Montagne Noire 81
    Total posts: 78

    Oh what a shame! lol & there was I about to start researching BMW :D
    Au contraire JSKS I merely suggested that the BMW oops BMJ
    might appreciate your input when further trials are reviewed. :wink:


    #979747
    jsks
    jsks
    Participant
    Joined: 03 Sep 2010
    Location: Potatoshire, North Yorkshire and Co Cork soon?
    Total posts: 5674

    @sorrel wrote:

    Oh what a shame! lol & there was I about to start researching BMW :D
    Au contraire JSKS I merely suggested that the BMW oops BMJ
    might appreciate your input when further trials are reviewed. :wink:

    Actually what they do is put papers being considered for publication in front of peer reviewers; that is, the paper is sent to a number of members of the peer review panel who check for things like relevance, ethical correctness ( although this is inspected by the ethics panel before a study even begins), methods, results, conclusions and so forth. This is a relatively recent effort to prevent clearly flawed or dubious trials from being published. I’m not sure what sort of a review a paper published in 2000 and therefore submitted prior to that would have undergone or even if it was reviewed at all.

    You tend to get a lot of fringe publications which will publish any old tosh. This is particularly true of publications representing unproven therapies; for example aromatherapy, reiki and so forth – they tend to publish stuff that confirms the precept of that therapy and some of the studies are not only woeful but clearly contrived. I’m not saying that is the case with homeopathy publications as I have no knowledge of them because homeopathy is not something I choose to follow (in the same way that I don’t follow the others listed but have had occasion to see some of their publications.

    My main problem with complementary therapies is not the therapies themselves, it is the clear and continuing quasi-science that is manipulated to produce confirmatory results from worthless (in a scientific sense) rubbish.

    The difference in real medicine and surgery is that it is essential to assess the real risks vs benefits of drugs, procedures etc to know whether a new technique improves upon the current standard. And, most importantly, whether a technique provides real benefits above placebo. Now this is irrelevant if you are just giving folk pure water but is very relevant if you want to know if drug A is causing some other problem, if surgical technique B actually cures whatever it is aimed at and so forth.

    I just don’t understand why homeopaths are so afraid of conducting gold standard clinical trials.

    #979746
    Grumpy Yorkie
    Grumpy Yorkie
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    Joined: 30 Jan 2008
    Location: Villeréal, Lot et Garonne
    Total posts: 6782

    @jsks wrote:

    Please note that I haven’t written any BMW papers. My phones keyboard rendered BMJ as BMW in the post above.

    The joys of waiting outside Sainsbury!

    Snob ……… too posh to say Asda? :)

    Stuart


    Flat cap, whippet, Panda, V8 Jaguar, V12 Mercedes and a '54 Sunbeam Talbot 90 called Josephine (obviously) ................... bloody grand!

    #979745
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    opalette
    Member
    Joined: 12 May 2005
    Location: 71
    Total posts: 1130

    A blinded BMW study is an interesting, if dangerous, concept :D


    #979744
    jsks
    jsks
    Participant
    Joined: 03 Sep 2010
    Location: Potatoshire, North Yorkshire and Co Cork soon?
    Total posts: 5674

    @grumpyyorkie wrote:

    @jsks wrote:

    Please note that I haven’t written any BMW papers. My phones keyboard rendered BMJ as BMW in the post above.

    The joys of waiting outside Sainsbury!

    Snob ……… too posh to say Asda? :)

    Stuart

    The best thing about Sainsbury?

    They keep the riff-raff out of Waitrose!

    #979743
    jsks
    jsks
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    Joined: 03 Sep 2010
    Location: Potatoshire, North Yorkshire and Co Cork soon?
    Total posts: 5674

    @opalette wrote:

    A blinded BMW study is an interesting, if dangerous, concept :D

    Naughty girl!

    #979742
    Grumpy Yorkie
    Grumpy Yorkie
    Participant
    Joined: 30 Jan 2008
    Location: Villeréal, Lot et Garonne
    Total posts: 6782

    @jsks wrote:

    @grumpyyorkie wrote:

    @jsks wrote:

    Please note that I haven’t written any BMW papers. My phones keyboard rendered BMJ as BMW in the post above.

    The joys of waiting outside Sainsbury!

    Snob ……… too posh to say Asda? :)

    Stuart

    The best thing about Sainsbury?

    They keep the riff-raff out of Waitrose!

    I didn’t know you were a Stephen Fry fan! :wink:

    Stuart


    Flat cap, whippet, Panda, V8 Jaguar, V12 Mercedes and a '54 Sunbeam Talbot 90 called Josephine (obviously) ................... bloody grand!

    #979741
    jsks
    jsks
    Participant
    Joined: 03 Sep 2010
    Location: Potatoshire, North Yorkshire and Co Cork soon?
    Total posts: 5674

    @grumpyyorkie wrote:

    I didn’t know you were a Stephen Fry fan! :wink:

    Stuart

    Isn’t everyone?

    Maybe we could do a study to find out?

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