Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 228 total)
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  • #863394
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    marengo
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    Joined: 07 Jul 2005
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 353

    When did the Third Reich round up people and give them a square meal, three hundred Euros and reasonable comfortable transport to their home country? The tales I heard was that it was mainly French nationals that were rounded up, put into Drancy before being put onto cattle trucks a sent off for the “final solution”, often as a result of collaboration and stories put about by other French persons.

    No emotive outpourings. Just a reference to what I remember from studying history and then from doing a lot of study post-graduate into what happens to a society when discrimination becomes formalised by a State’s apparatus. It’s especially interesting to reflect on this situation given the context of the modern financial crisis said to be the worst we’ve faced since the 1930’s. Another interesting twist is that we’re referring to this action being instigated by a right wing presidential figure who himself has an immigrant background.

    So to refer back to lessons from history: the end point described above had a start point, and the important thing about that start point was State formalisation of discrimination. If the Nazi party behaviour in the 1930s isn’t your cup of tea, you can have a look at almost any other example of ethnic cleansing around the world and find similar processes at work. Economic strife, identifiable minorities who are unpopular, increasingly hostile rhetoric leading to formal steps to remove that minority. It can be a slippery slope. Have a look at Allport’s work on prejudice if you’d like a detailed treatise.

    The Roma may not have been deported in cattle trucks – but the mode of transport is not the defining issue here. The point is a step change in the nature of discrimination against an ethnic group in a supposedly secure, rational, democratic first world country, especially when they are signatories of a wide-ranging human rights treaty that was established shortly after WWII to try and prevent future atrocities. That treaty was written in the full knowledge that the point where we should start paying attention is long before people are being systematically targeted and killed because of their ethnicity.

    So, in short, are Roma people now more or less secure in France than they were before the Government implemented a policy of deportation? Are they more or less likely to suffer racially motivated attacks, lose their livelihoods, suffer from increasing poverty etc etc? And what about other unpopular minorities? Are they now more or less secure in this country?


    #863395
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    marengo
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    Joined: 07 Jul 2005
    Location: N/A
    Total posts: 353

    @murkybuckets wrote:

    The answer is NO. How many weeks did it take……………………….http://www.francesoir.fr/immigration-po … iale.23765

    I’m glad that they’ve done that, even if it’s taken them a while.


    #863396
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    bradwellbear
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    Joined: 30 Jun 2006
    Location: Milton Keynes
    Total posts: 297

    Is it not the fact that they are not just deporting EU citizens who happen to be out of work but instead they are deporting EU citizens who do not want to work and that are illegally squatting on land that doesnt belong to them, and causing problems wherever they are.


    #863397
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    janes
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    Joined: 08 Dec 2003
    Location: Gone
    Total posts: 1092

    @bradwellbear wrote:

    Is it not the fact that they are not just deporting EU citizens who happen to be out of work but instead they are deporting EU citizens who do not want to work and that are illegally squatting on land that doesnt belong to them, and causing problems wherever they are.

    This is a classic example of lumping everyone together and making inaccurate assumptions. Have you even read the article posted in this thread by Murkybuckets?


    The revolution is just a T-shirt away.... http://nowhereonthames.blogspot.com

    #863398
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    bradwellbear
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    Joined: 30 Jun 2006
    Location: Milton Keynes
    Total posts: 297

    Yes Jane I read the article posted by murkybuckets ,what assumptions have I made , if they are closing down illegal camps then i dont see the problem.


    #863399
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    murkybuckets
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    Joined: 21 Apr 2010
    Location: 77
    Total posts: 43

    Illegal camps are the fault of the French local administrations.
    Perhaps the 90odd% of the communes which ignore loi Besson should have their funding withdrawn for the legal camps they should have opened 20 years ago.
    Another 3900 legal camps might mean the illegal camps would not be necessary.

    All Roma are thieves. All Anglais are rich.
    Both statements are true if you are French. If you think the 2nd is untrue, why not the 1st?


    #863400
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    bradwellbear
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    Joined: 30 Jun 2006
    Location: Milton Keynes
    Total posts: 297

    I cant comment on the second point, but my experience of gypsies in the UK would tend to make me believe your first point


    #863401
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    stuagain
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    Joined: 20 Sep 2004
    Location: South of Cahors, Lot, 46
    Total posts: 1795

    It is an unpleasant fact that the actions of a few have, and always have had, an adverse reaction by lumping the majority with the few. eg:

    *Some UK MP’s are fiddling their expenses so all UK MP’s are on the fiddle and new procedures are bought in.

    *A nutter goes beserk with a gun therefore all gun owners are nutters and penalised.

    *A propos another thread. Some hunters act inconsiderately therefore all hunters are inconsiderate.

    *Some drivers drive inconsiderately fast regardless of the conditions therefore all drivers must be regulated, restricted and penalised regardless of the road conditions.

    *Some Roma are thieves, squatting illegally, begging, not sending children to school, criminal activities, ergo ……….

    Unless there can be a method of fine tuning we have a system that results in the actions of a few results in the majority being affected.

    In addition a lot of people live in a “cloud cuckoo land” and believe that if people are treated right they will not take advantage. If that is the case then con-artists and scammers would not exist.

    My views are coloured by experience. Two years ago I was burgled by, as the gendarmes told me afterwards, a gang of travellers from the East.

    To the supporters of the Roma, I say, invite them to your commune and home then see what your neighbours say and find out what happens.


    I'll soar like an eagle rather than cower with the crows.

    #863402
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    janes
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    Joined: 08 Dec 2003
    Location: Gone
    Total posts: 1092

    Sorry, but until you can convince me that MP’s, gun owners, bad drivers etc., are “ethnic groups”, StuAgain, your argument really doesn’t hold up. You can choose to be any one of the examples you’ve quoted, you can’t really choose to be Roma or not. In many (not all) cases – and I accept that in any group there will be “bad apples” – these people want to work, live in decent accommodation and get on with their lives. They’re marginalised and distrusted, so they can’t. And they can’t pretend NOT to be Roma because they LOOK like Roma. You can’t identify an MP, mad gunman, bad driver in the street, but you can, more often than not, recognise a Roma.

    I don’t recall any incidence of mass deportation of criminals, gun owners or bad drivers, BTW. At least, not since they were trying to populate Australia. :lol:


    The revolution is just a T-shirt away.... http://nowhereonthames.blogspot.com

    #863403
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    pp-chris
    Member
    Joined: 28 Jul 2005
    Location: Somewhere in the woods in La Vienne, (86) France
    Total posts: 1785

    My views are coloured by experience. Two years ago I was burgled by, as the gendarmes told me afterwards, a gang of travellers from the East.

    Of course they could tell you anything they liked – who was convicted?

    I say this because in a different life I had one of those licensed corner shops in Bayswater and everytime we were either robbed or had someone grab a load of drink and run out, the first thing the police would say as they rushed into the shop was “Black were they?”. Now arguably that’s a question but it’s skewed from the start and that’s where my problem is with “painting pictures”. Even more so because near to where I live is a “Gypsy family”. He runs what he calls a Brocante out of an old factory building with a huge yard. He works very hard and spends a lot of time out with his truck picking up scrap and does very well out of it – but he works and AFAIK he isn’t a thief or a crook and pays his social charges.

    OK, he’s a gypsy not a Roma but I like the guy and he turns up some interesting stuff from time to time, and more importantly I would trust him as much as anyone else.

    Chris


    http://www.planetepassion.eu

    Association Planete Passion - Wildlife in France in the English language.

    #863404
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    stuagain
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    Joined: 20 Sep 2004
    Location: South of Cahors, Lot, 46
    Total posts: 1795

    Of course they could tell you anything they liked – who was convicted?

    Why should they tell me “anything they liked”, I would rather believe the Gendarmerie than hearsay on an Internet Forum, as they told me that the gang operating in the Midi-Pyrenees was broken up, the “troc” they set up and were selling stolen goods through was closed down and the robbery perpetrators jailed.

    Some of my goods were recovered via the Gendarmerie who recovered them from a woman who bought them from the Troc. Names and addresses were quite obvious on the file that was left on the desk (well you can’t avoid looking can you) when I went to make the identification and disposition.

    For me, one bad apple ruins the whole barrel. Thus I am like the majority and I do not give a s**t.


    I'll soar like an eagle rather than cower with the crows.

    #863405
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    pp-chris
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    Joined: 28 Jul 2005
    Location: Somewhere in the woods in La Vienne, (86) France
    Total posts: 1785

    Right.

    Chris


    http://www.planetepassion.eu

    Association Planete Passion - Wildlife in France in the English language.

    #863406
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    stuagain
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    Joined: 20 Sep 2004
    Location: South of Cahors, Lot, 46
    Total posts: 1795

    Chris-pp wrote:

    Right.

    Thank you. My views are my own and I respect the right of others to hold alternate views and I would only attempt to amend the views of others by reasoned arguments, debate and experience, not through emotion or prejudice.


    I'll soar like an eagle rather than cower with the crows.

    #863407
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    peony
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    Joined: 10 Jan 2010
    Location: Surrey and ex-Dronne Valley (24)
    Total posts: 1284

    Good analysis by Marengo. Bad economic times, EC working its way into collapse or separation, worries in most of Western Europe about immigration, French 67% support for deportations, Sarko playing for the right, always blame an external enemy when life gets hard. So are the Roma safer? Certainly not. But my thesis is that they’re just a proxy; if it wasn’t them it would be someone else. And there’s not much will stop it IMHO. Certainly not passionate protest on Anglo forums.


    #863408
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    nounours
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    Joined: 23 Feb 2009
    Location: 12
    Total posts: 1148

    It would help if the commentators particularly on the BBC would get their facts straight. All you hear is about the rights of free movement by EU citizens in the EU and that France by expelling EU citizens is in breach of EU legislation. The truth is far from that. As has already been mentioned there is no right of movement of those not intending to work. These rules were accepted by the EU up to now and apply not only to Romanians and Bulgarians but all EU citizens including the British.

    By voting for the acceptance of more countries into the EU, France did not throw open her doors to all, neither did the UK who imposed severe restrictions on Romanians and Bulgarians even going to the UK to work, and nobody batted an eyelid. :shock: But now the French are expelling non working immigrants, the bleeding hearts in the UK are up in arms. :cry:

    Yes its a political decision to expel the so called Romas from France but no different to the bulldozing of an illegal gypsy camp near Basildon except the UK cannot expel the largely Irish inhabitants as they don’t have the same laws that allow France to expel non-working, non-contributing EU citizens.


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